there are others that are important, but there are four koch brothers, and charles koch, they're allrom wichita, kansas. he is a really fascinating and driven character who has had tremendous influence on american politics. very few people know them personally. he is very secretive, under the radar. and he and his brothers are worth about $85 billion. that gives them a lot of weight. they have the money, the brains, and he has the passion player in player. >> some would argue that he is pushing guys that doesn't necessarily make him smart, it might make him greety. >> he has two great degrees from mit. an engineer, okay? and the thing is, it is interesting what there is, what he and his drove, david koch, also a graduate of mit, both of them looked at that is a -- where are the systems, the wid g widgets, how can we turn the dials, and what interested me when i was writing about them, and their point of view, they tried running in an election in 1980 on a libertarian ticket. he ran against ronald reagan from the right, because they thought reagan was too liberal -- >> that's scary. >