in favor of brute force, as one of the most famous international sociologists of the century, charles tillyote, wars create a state, and the state is waging war, some, however, take it quite literally. in the early nineties, i visited several times - at different conferences where i participated, these overseas ukrainians, one very prominent historian, a good historian, told me that from his point of view, the way this independence fell, fell on ukraine, it’s wrong, and it’s like an unfinished story, because, firstly , from his point of view, it was necessary to carry out a population exchange, as in forty-four, forty-five , that is, russia had to give up those 7 million ukrainians who lived in russia, and 7 million russians would go back to russia from ukraine, that’s what he offered. then he said that in general, strong independence, with a strong identity, it is born out of war , in general, if you look at the press, there is western ukrainian, ninety-one, ninety-two, war with russia seems inevitable and b- desirable. and it is clear that these ideas have not gone away. what the ukrainia

as one of the most famous international sociologists of the 20th century, charles tilly, wrote, warstes, and states wage wars. some people, however, understand this. quite literally. in the early nineties - i visited several times - at different conferences - where these overseas ukrainians participated. one very prominent historian, a good historian, told me that from his point of view, this is how this independence fell, fell. to ukraine, this is wrong, and this is like an unfinished story, because, firstly, from his point of view , it was necessary to carry out an exchange of population, like, uh, in forty-four, forty-five, that is, russia had to give up those 7 million ukrainians who lived in russia, and 7 million russians, would go back to russia from ukraine, that's what he proposed, then he said that in general, strong independence, with a strong identity, is born out of war, and in general, if you look at the press, there is western ukrainian, ninety-one, ninety in the second year, war with russia appears to be a inevitable and b desirable. and it is clear that these ideas ca

. >> i did not know that was a charles tilly question. i think, unless there is another hand that i see her, which i don't, i think we have exhausted most of what i saw that was not stepping on the other questions here, and yeah, i think we have covered most of what we needed to cover today, and i do not want to stand between all of you and perfectly legal beer and wine that will be available upstairs. so again, i think this is a very important, very sobering, very grim topic that i think is going to be persistent in our policy in the months and conceivable years to come. it is very important. cato with its unique perspective is going to have a role to play, and i am very thankful that we covered what i think is a tremendous amount of the different aspects of this issue here this afternoon, so it is 4:20 on a friday afternoon. have some beer and wine in the afternoon. for the people on c-span, thank you very much, and please join me in thanking the panel is here today. thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you. [indiscernible chatter]