in the russian mind, the battle of [indiscernible] where charles xii tried to occupy russia, it fell to ukraine. >> so russia will always be there. a wise ukrainian policy would try to say to themselves that the current ukrainian politics, which are organized according to the language almost that a russian party and a western party, that there be some way of organizing the internal structure of ukraine that it is more conciliatory. that is going to be very hard. but i think it is necessary. >> what part is hard? to get the ukrainian government -- >> one is russian and one is western. if you look at the american role, in my opinion, we have made the mistake of getting ourselves involved with one side in every one of these crises. and then, as soon as the crisis is over, the competitive ukrainian conflicts take over. in 2004, the orange revolution, we got totally behind the candidate who has since disappeared from the scene. emotion go -- demo schinkel -- timoshenko was supposed to be our person. and i think an effort should be made. all of us, russia, west, should encourage a foreign-