>> charlie sykes, bring you in to this.the coup. john eastman continued for many months to peddle his conspiracies about the results of the 2020 election. they are conspiracies he repeats to this day. this is defense in his disbar ment proceeding in california. he remain assess threat to the institutions that the 2020 elections sit at a fulcrum of extremist based on the department of homeland security. what do you make of the slow effort to hold him accountable and disbar him? >> you know i'm frustrated at the slow pace, coming up on 30 months since january 3rd. but in this particular case i think we'll find out whether the concept, legal ethics is on oxymoron. timothy laid it out clearly. some things lawyers could do and some things that clearly are misconduct. even playing a clip of john eastman ranting at the january 6th rally before the attack on the capitol. that is not someone making a coherent or credible legal argument. that is somebody who is not acting as an officer of the court. and the fact that he knew that his

and charlie sykes editor at large and also susan page also joining us.is chris christie jumping in now, what does it mean for trump? he didn't to well in new hampshire last time around. but chris christie is battle ready and as a former prosecutor he might have a certain extra edge this time around? >> reporter: right, i mean, if you listen to what governor christie has said in the past, he has been clear that he will have that attempt to at least start some fireworks, start some sparks about the former president donald trump. it was back in march when governor christie was here in new hampshire at a town hall meeting teasing a potential presidential run. and he said back in 2016 he made a strategic error by trying to avoid the former president. but he's no longer that ally and january 6 fundamentally changed how he viewed the former president and he says he will take the former president head-on. and his campaign is being very clear that is the strategy. they want to be a counterpunch to former president trump. they want chris christie to do in their wo

we have the founder of the conservative website "the bulwark," charlie sykes with us. about republicans sharpening their attacks on donald trump when it comes to his federal indictment chris christie, no surprise. bill barr, no surprise although, perhaps a little bit surprising, just how vorciferous he has been. >> i was compiling a list this morning of all the trump insiders who have broken with the president. i mean, we use the word unprecedented a lot. obviously, nobody has ever been, you know, impeached twice. donald trump has been indicted twice. but think about the pattern we're seeing right here. you have, among the people who have been in the room with donald trump, his former attorney general, two secretaries of defense, a secretary of state, two former chiefs of staff, two national security advisers, the secretary of the navy, his own communications director, own press secretary, and now his vice president of the united states who are basically saying, "let's not do this again." i don't think this is any historical parallel for a president of the united state

jen psaki and charlie sykes, i mean, come on. make it make sense. be logical. thank you all very much. don't miss inside with jen psaki, a fabulous show, sundays at noon eastern right here on msnbc. you can also catch new original episodes every thursday, exclusively, on peacock. >>> up next, from pardon to promises of -- to promises to unhinged conspiracy theories, how the right is trying to turn january 6th defendants into heroic patriots. "the reidout" continues after this. we switched to liberty mutual and saved $652. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we thought we'd try electric unicycles. whoa! careful, babe! saving was definitely easier. hey babe, i think i got it! it's actually... whooooa! ok, show-off! help! oh! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ wake up, achievers. onyou're making the most of every hour of your life. except the hours that you're sleeping. so why do we leave so much untapped potential on the table? this is a next level bed, for a next level yo

donna edwards and charlie sykes, i want to zero in on the former vice president mike pence.he indictment. this is mike pence before it was unsealed. >> i believe that anyone who puts themselves -- should never be present a united states. anyone who asks someone else to put them over the constitution should never be president of the united states again. >> pence was also stronger on friday morning. and then here's what mike pence had to say after the indictment is unsealed. >> attorney general merrick garland stopped hiding behind the special counsel. stand before the american people and explain why this indictment went forward. >> what is the strategy here if you heard mike pence before the indictment is unsealed, he was strong and spot on and many of the comments. he was. he's walking cognitive dissonance or a. now he's unwilling to take us. and he's unwilling to be too hot or too cold with donald trump. unlike chris christie. who is understood with all of his baggage and with his 1% in the polls that you're not going to beat donald trump unless you go through them. unless

we're back with tim heaphy, charlie sykes and jackie alemany. one of the two. the simpatico report came up with an interview we did with alex cannon, who was a campaign lawyer. and when he was asked about it he asserted attorney-client privilege, said i can't share with you the results of that because it was a commissioned report by counsel. it's an example of a lot of things where we would come up against assertions of privilege with people that knew that we did not have what jack smith has, is the ability to quickly adjudicate that assertion and potentially overcome that claim of privilege. so we were aware of one of the two, not the berkeley research group one. but we never got access to either report. >> tell me why they matter. >> they matter because they go directly to the president's state of mind. we developed a lot of evidence, very similar to the conclusions that are being reported in those reports, that people looked hard inside the justice department, inside the trump campaign at allegations of election fraud and found that they were

joining us now, founder of the conservative web site the bulwark, our friend, charlie sykes.n the central issue that has not been great for republicans in recent years. sounds like our friend joe scarborough's list, and then also suggesting that that could be a problem again this time around, even setting aside the idea of the white house. if trump is at the top of the ticket, that could cost the republicans the house and senate. what do you think? >> no kidding. if he's concerned about drama and chaos, strap in because we've got a taste of what the next year and a half is going to be like. that was a very clear-eyed analysis, and it's remarkable that other leading republicans aren't more vocal about it. look, from donald trump is the nominee, 2024 becomes a referendum on donald trump. donald trump becomes the central character in that particular drama as opposed to talking about any of the other issues that republicans claim to care about, and as opposed to a referendum on joe biden. i think he's very clearly right. unfortunately, the republican party appears to be just on t

hear in that long question, and what we've seen repeat in our investigation and otherwise. >> charlie sykesrn against trump, but i think this is extraordinarily interesting that these voices are coming not from the resistance, not from the democrats, not from people on msnbc. they're coming from people who were in the room, people who work with donald trump, who saw him up close and personal, who saw him in the raw, saw what kind of a man he was, saw what his presidency was all about. and if you would have gone back to 2017 and gone through this roster of people who have now broken with him, it would be extraordinary. to the -- to the point about saying no to donald trump, i think we need to keep in mind none of those people would be in a trump 2.0. there will be no people who will say no to donald trump. i don't know whether this is going to make a difference, but i -- i do think that on the margins it will when you have people like bill barr, when you have the former secretary of defense mark esper saying that he has been reckless, that he is a narcissist, that he is a petulant child, whe

so i think that's a bit of a -- in a teapot in terms of where that landed. >> charlie sykes, i wonderl together some of these threads. to andrew's point, there's always a room full of people. trump is so emboldened in his role for so long without being held accountable. there were lots of people on the perfect call. there were a room full of people as he waved around classified material, and the staffer knew it was problematic. there were many people on the text with walt nauta where he was talking about, you know, my boxes, my boxing boxes. there are a whole bunch of people who know exactly what trump did. it sounds like a lot of them knew it was wrong. >> and jack smith knows all of that. jack smith has that case buttoned up. donald trump's strategy not for the first time is to gaslight america, to say, no, you did not hear what you just heard. what you think happened did not, in fact, happen. he's done this over and over and over again, and he's found that it's been politically effective, at least in republican circles. but it is going to be an extraordinary moment where he's going

not as much as it used to be charlie sykes in wisconsin saying the same thing.g to see exhaustion kick in you're in deep red tennessee where some of your elected officials say some of the most egregious things about this. are you finding in your church, in your community, among friends the change that charlie and i are finding among people who voted for donald trump twice >> not really. i'm seeing the exhausted people are more exhausted the people who are already a little bit out of trump are more out on trump among the hard core -- joe, we're not seeing any substantial change in the polls. i'm not sensing any change in the temperature and the vibes that you think about that sometimes -- >> david, explain this to me again, back when i was a republican, it wasn't enough to win. we had to win big. it wasn't -- i mean, we had to win every two years. >> it was an obsession there was no substitute for victory. i said that was over my campaign headquarters in my first campaign that was the mantra of the republican party i'm just curious how can these people who sat th

charlie sykes, let's turn to the politics of this. i mean, if you're, let's say, ron desantis, appearing in new hampshire today, just like trump is, or one of the other candidates, to this point, your message has been to defend this issue. chris christie has been on the attack, but the rest have criticized jack smith instead. on tape, you have, more or less, donald trump waving papers around saying, "i'm committing a crime right now." isn't that the moment where it could be an opening for some of the republicans to change their tune? >> well, you would think so, right, but, i mean, how many potential off-ramps have they had that they passed by? you are hearing voices like chris christie and asa hutchinson and will hurd who are calling out donald trump and talking about this indictment, but the other candidates apparently have settled on the strategy of, you know, hoping that, somehow, donald trump will implode or that jack smith will take care of him. look, this will be an interesting moment. if ron desantis actually wants to win this

and now, look at this, charlie sykes.ke -- i know a lot of people think, i just fell off of a turnip truck last week coming up from pensacola, florida, they dropped me off in front of 30 rock. but no, i was actually in congress and i was in congress at a time where they called us fire breathers, right? where they said that they were right-wing extremists. and maybe on economic issues, maybe we were. but this would have never happened. this would have not only never happened when i was there in 2000, this wouldn't have happened in 2010 with the tea party. this wouldn't have even happened in 2015. this is -- this is -- this contempt for the rule of law and contempt for our united states, men and women in uniform, for the intel community, this all centers around defending one failed president and failed reality tv show star. it's just incomprehensible for somebody like you and me that grew up conservative republicans. >> well, you're right, it is sleazy. it is hackey, but it's also politically dumb. i mean, the smart move wo

charlie sykes -- actually, all of us have had this conversation.istie's role in enabling trump, it is always part of the story. chris christie's most dramatic moment in the 2016 campaign cycle was ending marco rubio's dream of being the president of the united states on a debate stage. to watch him take his prosecutorial and political skills and wield them against donald trump -- i forget if we are going by desantis or desantis -- he hasn't settled on a pronunciation yet -- it is something. >> it is. two things. chris christie is all out of bleeps to give here. ron desantis is very bad at this. chris christie is very, very good at this, despite all of the baggage. ron desantis cannot bring himself to pull the trigger. he has a sign behind him saying, restore sanity. what is he talking about? what are you talking about? who is the insane person here? why are we restoring insanity? he ties himself in knots. he engaged in these elaborate dances. chris christie just called him out, just directly said, you weren't there, you didn't watch it, you didn't

joining me now is vaughn hillyard with former president trump in concord and charlie sykes and whileui. vaughn, donald trump is set to speak there shortly after desantis earlier was asked about the former president and the january 6 issue. how important is new hampshire for the two frontrunners? i think you have some sound of what he had to say, desantis. >> reporter: right. new hampshire is going to be important for anybody coming out of iowa, especially knowing that donald trump won easily eight years ago in the state. while ron desantis may not be in a position to win the state, to remain competitive to go to south carolina is key. the issue is, trump aides have told me over the last weeks that he is owning all of the oxygen in the republican room, around the indictments, around the investigations into him, while there's a great many folks around the country that don't think they are good for him, at the same time it's dominating the conversation within the republican primary. ron desantis tried to turn this on its head earlier down the road. take a listen. >> if this election is

. >> joining our coverage, editor-at-large of bulwark, msnbc contributor, charlie sykes, also joining iraq and afghanistan, veterans of america, the post of the independent americans podcast, paul reich is here. i want to show you guys one more piece of sound because christie's campaign is very different from christie's last campaign where he did not criticize donald trump and the first to endorse him. it earned him the ire of mitt romney and others. christie is not just teeing off on trump. he's teeing off on the rest of the field. let me show you this, charlie. >> we have pretenders all around us, who want to tell you pick me. 'cause i'm kind of like what you picked before. but not quite as crazy. but i don't want to say his name. because for these other pretenders he is for those of you who read the. hp books like volodymyr, he is he shall not be named. >> charlie sykes, he's not on the top of the republican polls, he's a, i think, long shot candidate, but he's the only one running like this? >> let's stipulate he really doesn't have a shot, he's not going to win this nomination. b

who rose up against them, have their counterparts in what was the republican party, you know, charlie sykesvery strong conservative republican before trump came in. and he looked at that, and as did many, many, many others, prominent republicans and say, oh, no, no, i can't be that. i have to oppose that, whatever i do, i have to oppose that. >> yes, and you can't make an analogy between the nazis and anybody, you can't really make an analogy, a direct one, between, you know, french fascists and other -- but you can see, when there is a shock, particularly a shock from the right, a shock from the right in these cases wants to undo the democratic system. if everybody else in the democratic system can recognize it as that, it can be a galvanizing, sort of, patriotic thing to rally behind. but save our country, save our democratic way of doing things, and get it for the sake of doing that, even if you wanna go back to fighting each other. >> and i was thinking, you couldn't possibly organize one of these things without twitter, and social media, all the details about how they did organize this

being anything that makes you uncomfortable about race i don't see how they get out of that box >> charlie sykes the bitter struggle behind the push to make juneteenth a national holiday. we'll be right back. it's jason johnson on "the reidout. she found it. the feeling of finding the psoriasis treatment she's been looking for. sotyktu is the first-of-its-kind, once-daily pill for moderate-to-severe plaque psoriasis for the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding your back... is back. or finding psoriasis can't deny the splendor of these thighs. once-daily sotyktu is proven to get more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor. tyk2 is part of the jak family. it's not known if soty

special correspondent for bbc news katty kay and the founder of the conservative website the bulwark charlie sykes is with us this morning. >> charlie, again, i've gotten to the point now, i mean, obviously like a lot of people as concerned about the extreme wokeness, you know, over the past several years, college campuses, you know, people getting fired for saying things that should really have just started a debate. you could go on and on. people getting shouted on, the hecklers veto. but i'm at a point now, and i have been for about six months, if i get a newsletter and it says woke in the headline, i erase it immediately. seriously, it is the pet rock of 2023 politics. >> it's a chia pet. >> it was a thing a couple of years ago, but when you have the head of berkeley law school, when you have the head of yale, when you have the head of all of these elite universities going, come on, you guys have gone too far, like enough with the hecklers veto, there has been a correction that ron desantis -- and, by the way, when suddenly you have right wingers saying racist things about chick-fil-a and tryi

as our friend charlie sykes writes in the bulwark, "no president has earned the open contempt and denunciationques from the resistance or never trumpers, who have essentially become democrats, these voices are coming from inside the house last week we heard from another individual from inside the house, trump's former chief of staff, john kelly. kelly telling the "washington post" not to fall for trump's tough and confident exterior following his indictment last week quote, he's scared bleepless this is the way he compensates for that he gives people the appearance he doesn't care by doing this. for the first time in his life it looks like he's being held accountable. up until this point in his life it's like, i'm not going to pay you, take me to court. he's never been held accountable before esper and barr also warning that the current gop presidential front-runner so never, ever hold office again >> do you think trump can be trusted with the nation's secrets ever again >> well, based on his actions, again, if proven true, under the indictment by the special counsel, no. i mean, it's just irr

charlie sykes, thank you very much for joining us this morning. >> thank you. >> it is indeed a historic morning as we deal with the aftermath of the first time ever that a former president of the united states has been arraigned on federal charges. >>> thank you so much for getting up "way too early" with us on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. >>> this is the most important government job on the planet. we're about to turn over the conservative movement to a person that has no ideas of any substance on the important issues, the nuclear codes of the united states to an erratic individual. what was the damage? was this stolen and sold to the iranians, sold to the saudis, given over to the russians, that allegation is not made in that indictment. no one has made that allegation. at the end of the day, you have to weigh the damage of the indictment versus the damage of the allegations. it's just not even a fair way. >> senator marco rubio's evolution on donald trump's access to and handling of classified documents. >> yeah, i agree, it's not even a close call. you wei