1984 for us to actually take policy actions to prohibit the production of these substances, chlorofluorocarbons, that were destroying the ozone layer. and perhaps the best example was that, you know, environmental pollution of our lakes and rivers. the cuyahoga river in ohio, it took that river catching on fire. it took a river catching on fire for the u.s. public to say wait a second, we have a problem here we need to do something about. so some of us, you know, think that we may unfortunately need to have that cuyahoga river moment in the climate change debate before we will act. something so undeniable that even the most well funded, well organized disinformation campaign cannot convince the public not to believe what they're seeing with their own two eyes. >> when you talk to other scientists and urge them to get into the fight, do they explain their reluctance? >> what i perceive is that this problem is starting to solve itself naturally through sort of generational change. many of the younger scientists that i talk to, you know, graduate students today, young post docs, they grew up in a