joining me now to discuss, chris verrone head of strategic research partners.ack. >> great to be here. >> north of 5%. >> yeah. >> to where? >> 510, 520 is the target from the breakout. so if you look at the range we were in for much of the year, you get 510 and 520, but let's not complicate this. we're in a business of trends and until the market says otherwise the trend is higher. more important than 510 or 517 or 522 it's higher until the market says otherwise. what's remarkable to me is despite how persistent the move in yields have been, if you sauer have a the economist on the street, 48 economists yield to bloomberg every week. neither of them have a forecast of 5% and it's 30 basis points away, scott. >> what makes you think we're going to get there? i understand trends, but it doesn't really -- >> there is every opportunity over the last five or six weeks and even this weekend with the debt deal in washington and everything you throw at this there are more sellers than buyers and it reflects a massive amount of supply that's out there. i also find it n

i remember chris verrone was on the desk. a lot of people pointed this was actually a really bearish sign and the next leg of where it could go. you can make an argument this is the kind of bearish steepening that actually is what you might see when the economy's doing better. the -- when you see the short end coming in and creating that kind of steepening, it means the economy, i think people pricing in lower rates. e we had some information from the boj, we got some rhetoric. international bond yields has something to do with what's going on here. i think our federal reserve, in addition to not buying is actually selling her. and i think there's a lot of different issues here. it's interesting. i would have thought that last week going into the weekend and the government shutdown that the bond market was playing some games a little bit with that. if anything, it says no. unless you believe that bond yields moving higher is people really believing there's more of a fiscal deficit on the horizon and ratings agencies. i'll say