also joining me was chris whipple. he's the author of a new history of the chiefs. called "the gatekeepers: how the white house chiefes of staff define every presidency." is it the toughest job, second to the presidency, in washington? andy? >> it's the toughest job because you're helping the president do the real toughest job. >> rose: right. >> which means you have to have discipline and bring order to chaos, and you also have to pay attention to what's happening outside the white house as well as inside the white house. and you actually have to make sure that the president is served with the challenge in time to meet the thj so when a decision is made, it is relevant, and not irrelevant. >> charlie, it's also-- it's also tough because one of the chief roles of the chief of staff is to make sure that the president is hearing all the voices that he needs to hear, that he-- that he's getting all the -- >> to be an honest broker. >> to be an honest broker. to be a very honest broker. and also, as part of that role, honestly, to tell the president no when he needs to