chris whitty and ivor are reluctant to do— chris whitty and ivor are reluctant to do the — chris whittyc cummings fiasco, _ divert from the dominic cummings fiasco, court have gone to durham, clearly _ fiasco, court have gone to durham, clearly gives — fiasco, court have gone to durham, clearly gives the rules, all very worrying — clearly gives the rules, all very worrying. breezy confidence incredibly alarming. in his diaries, sir patrick— incredibly alarming. in his diaries, sir patrick suggests that you, along with others, to use his words, strong—armed him and chris whitty to attend _ strong—armed him and chris whitty to attend the _ strong—armed him and chris whitty to attend the press conference. did you? _ attend the press conference. did you? i— attend the press conference. did ou? ~ , you? , i think the first thing i should say — you? , i think the first thing i should say on _ you? , i think the first thing i should say on this _ you? , i think the first thing i should say on this as - you? , i think the first thing i should say on this as i - you? , i think the first thing i

as hannah mentioned, chris whitty, chief medical officer for england, when mentioned, chris whitty, chief risks of vaping as well and he mentioned that vaping is slightly less harmful than smoking, although he did say it is quite a low bar. now would be a good time to speak again to sanjay, professor sanjay agrawal, chair of the royal college of physicians tobacco advisory group, see if you can give us a slightly clearer indication of where the home level lies? chris whitty, chief medical officer, slightly less harmful than smoking, but it is a low bar. where do we stand with the health risks of vaping compared to smoking? health risks of vaping compared to smokin: ? . , health risks of vaping compared to smokin. ? .,, , ., . , health risks of vaping compared to | smoking?_ products smoking? vaping pro'ects products have been used _ smoking? vaping pro'ects products have been used for— smoking? vaping projects products have been used for 15, _ smoking? vaping projects products have been used for 15, 16 _ smoking? vaping projects products have been used for 15, 16 years, i smoking? vaping

i spoke to chris whitty and patrick about it. ., , too. where are you satisfied with that response? _ too. where are you satisfied with that response? did _ too. where are you satisfied with that response? did you - too. where are you satisfied with that response? did you think- too. where are you satisfied with| that response? did you think that too. where are you satisfied with i that response? did you think that mr hancock— that response? did you think that mr hancock and team where doing what they should be doing in terms of segregation in hospitals? no, they should be doing in terms of segregation in hospitals? no, as you can see from — segregation in hospitals? no, as you can see from the _ segregation in hospitals? no, as you can see from the stream _ segregation in hospitals? no, as you can see from the stream of - segregation in hospitals? no, as you| can see from the stream of messages in general, at this time in april everyone around the cabinet table knew that we had to probe and keep asking repeated questions. final

that meeting though, the prime minister texted you and mr hancock, sir patrick vallance and sir chris whittyom the nhs, your incipient understanding of the wave of death that was to ensure. it was still thought in number ten are downing street that herd immunity was the way forward. yes, but at this point on the friday evening, 13th march, plan a remained plan a and of course, what the pm is referring to, at that point in that week multiple scientist, including the csa and john edmunds had been explaining the herd immunity basic plan a, but there had been a lot of push back from it. the pm was nervy, saying how are we going to explain this better and how are we are going to get this argument out? the this better and how are we are going to get this argument out?— to get this argument out? the next da on the to get this argument out? the next day on the saturday, _ to get this argument out? the next day on the saturday, there - to get this argument out? the next day on the saturday, there were i to get this argument out? the next day on the saturday, there were a l day on the saturday, there

we would rely a great deal on chris whitty and patrick vallance, both of whom did an exceptionally good us a coalesced view of that broad church, so we would often take a steer from them as to the right approach. aha, often take a steer from them as to the right approach.— the right approach. a short point. the 13th of _ the right approach. a short point. the 13th of march, _ the right approach. a short point. the 13th of march, or _ the right approach. a short point. l the 13th of march, or thereabouts, it says, under mitigation, the nhs will be overwhelmed. that was news to you? will be overwhelmed. that was news to ou? . . will be overwhelmed. that was news to ou? , ., , ., ., to you? yes, that was news to me at that point- _ to you? yes, that was news to me at that point- of— to you? yes, that was news to me at that point. of the _ to you? yes, that was news to me at that point. of the second _ to you? yes, that was news to me at that point. of the second point - to you? yes, that was news to me at that point. of the second point i - that point. of the second point i want to take _

be radically improved, because they were fundamentally oral briefing from patrick vallance and chris whittyd. and then often very confused interpretations often very confused interpretations of what they had heard by officials in the cabinet office who did not necessarily have the skills and background and technical understanding to be able to explain those things well to number ten. pausing there, just to split those answers up, please, mister cummings, in relation to the reporting systems through the chief medical officer and the government was back chief scientific advisor, where those briefings by them to government recorded or were they oral? do you mean minuted? were they minuted, did they produce papers in support of everything they said? or was this final of communication largely an oral one? it final of communication largely an oral one? ., , final of communication largely an oral one? .,, ., , final of communication largely an oral one? ., , ., final of communication largely an oralone? ., ., ., ., oral one? it was largely an oral one althou:h oral one? it was largely an oral one

scientist patrick vallance that he said senior officials had tried to strong arm, strong arm him and chris whittyving a press conference around the time that dominic cummings was found to have driven his car to barnard castle. and he said, commenting on that , in these documents that on that, in these documents that were shown to the inquiry today, he said that this was he clearly broken the rules and the press conference that dominic cummings gave after that news came out was a rambling car crash. and in his diary entry, he also called bofis his diary entry, he also called boris johnson weak and indecisive . now, there was also indecisive. now, there was also a handwritten diary note that was shown to the inquiry today when another private secretary gave evidence to the inquiry . gave evidence to the inquiry. imran shafi, this was from a meeting between boris johnson and rishi sunak in march 2020. it said that this is what he had written, made a note of where killing the patient to tackle the tumour, large people. that's taken to mean large numbers of people who will die . why are we people who w

scientist patrick vallance that he said senior officials had tried to strong arm, strong arm him and chris whittyving a press conference around the time that dominic cummings was found to have driven his car to barnard castle. and he said, commenting on that , in these documents that on that, in these documents that were shown to the inquiry today, he said that this was he clearly broken the rules and the press conference that dominic cummings gave after that news came out was a rambling car crash. and in his diary entry, he also called bofis his diary entry, he also called boris johnson weak and indecisive . now, there was also indecisive. now, there was also a handwritten diary note that was shown to the inquiry today when another private secretary gave evidence to the inquiry . gave evidence to the inquiry. imran shafi, this was from a meeting between boris johnson and rishi sunak in march 2020. it said that this is what he had written, made a note of where killing the patient to tackle the tumour, large people. that's taken to mean large numbers of people who will die . why are we people who w

in relation to which sir chris whitty had prepared a summary, is that correct? yes.e, is he a private — street, william moore, is he a private sector re—? he street, william moore, is he a private sector re-?_ street, william moore, is he a private sector re-? he is a special adviser. this is written informally for you but it _ this is written informally for you but it can — this is written informally for you but it can be turned into more formal— but it can be turned into more formal note for ministers. he is telling — formal note for ministers. he is telling downing street what his take is on the _ telling downing street what his take is on the sage meeting. we are working — is on the sage meeting. we are working on— is on the sage meeting. we are working on four scenarios, but in practice — working on four scenarios, but in practice only two are worth considering for planning at this point — at the bottom of the page is at the opposite _ at the bottom of the page is at the opposite end of the risk scale and is our— opposite end of the risk scale and is our reasona

and sir chris whitty suggested it wasn't worth an argument. in england we introduced pointless face masks purely to avoid a political fight because of slightly wet scientific advice. government sources who heard the conversations claimed that dominic cummings was pushing for even more extreme measures for lockdown controls , such as lockdown controls, such as increasing fines for lockdown breaches. so we have neil ferguson , sage whitty vallance ferguson, sage whitty vallance and cummings, the pro lockdown blob constituting boris's working environment. but we now know that their approach was wrong . a study last year from wrong. a study last year from johns hopkins suggested that covid lockdowns only saved 0.2% of deaths in the first wave. even professor mark woolhouse, a senior epidemic allergist who advised the government during the coronavirus pandemic, told the coronavirus pandemic, told the covid inquiry that national shutdowns were a failure of pubuc shutdowns were a failure of public health policy. but more important, he sweden is the s

have been very uncomfortable to be someone who was taking a position against the expert advice of chris whittyrences and parliamentary statements. it is the organisational underpinning for what is going on, but the actual advice to the prime minister came from others. you send notes to the — minister came from others. you send notes to the prime _ minister came from others. you send notes to the prime minister- minister came from others. you send notes to the prime minister which - notes to the prime minister which were _ notes to the prime minister which were put— notes to the prime minister which were put into _ notes to the prime minister which were put into his— notes to the prime minister which were put into his red _ notes to the prime minister which were put into his red box- notes to the prime minister which were put into his red box can - were put into his red box can concerning _ were put into his red box can concerning developments - were put into his red box can concerning developments ini were put into his red box can - concerning developments in relation to the _ concerning devel

were told right from the start by professor from the very start by professor chris that lockdown chris whittyk the rules. so making sure that but that actually the government but surely the case, why surely if that's the case, why do you need encourage people do you need to encourage people you need you can just end you don't need you can just end the restrictions people will the restrictions and people will go to normal. the restrictions and people will go don'tnrmal. the restrictions and people will go don't need to subsidise >> you don't need to subsidise people eating indoors. >> in, i think in >> well, this was in, i think in september had the september time. so we'd had the lockdown in march and sort of we'd got through to the summer and i think, you know, prevalence down prevalence was, was down and we were looking at and then were sort of looking at and then it right back again it went right back up again again. you know, there were again. but you know, there were waves throughout again. but you know, there were waves and throughout again. but you know, there were waves and so through

radically improved because they were fundamentally daily oral briefings from patrick vallance and chris whittythe other hand, and then often very confused interpretation of what they had heard and by officials in the cabinet office who did not necessarily have the skills and background and technical understanding to be able to explain those things well to number 10. so that pausing that just to split those answers up, please. >> mr cummings in relation to the reporting system through the chief medical officer and the government's chief scientific adviser , were those briefings by adviser, were those briefings by them to government recorded or were they oral ? were they oral? >> what would you mean by record ? do you mean minuted? >> were they minuted? did they produce papers in support of everything they said ? or was everything they said? or was this funnel of communication largely an oral one? >> it was largely an oral one, though of course, the private secretary would record notes from the meeting and then issue action points and other things from in the normal way, from the private office.

. >> chris whitty's been on the ainnaves this morning saying prohibition rarely which ainnaves this mornings morning saying pthink is interesting from'hich ainnaves this morning saying pthink is interesting from him i think is interesting from him . it's interesting that . and also it's interesting that labour have said they would vote in favour of these proposals. it's only liz truss that i've sort of seen the sort of truss sites. >> yeah, well people don't like cigarette, people don't smoke, really don't cigarettes and really don't like cigarettes and i understand they i can understand that, but they don't to experience don't really have to experience them any more anywhere. you don't them in pubs. don't experience them in pubs. i think it's, yeah, i think it's , think it's, yeah, i think it's, it's sad in a way, but then i'm often wrong about these things . often wrong about these things. >> i don't know how anyone can afford to smoke anymore. i honestly don't much as a packet of 20. oh, i don't know, £15 or something. >> £20. yeah. >> £20. yeah. >> it's a lot. and i remember when i was

joining us from westminster is sir chris whitty, the chief medical officer for england. drop. i do want to respond just briefly to the last speaker. i think it is worth saying, he is very open about this. his organisation is funded by the cigarette industry. if they were not worried about this they were not worried about this they would not be arguing against this. the argument it will not lead to a drop is a bogus one. the second thing he has not really taken into account and i think those who argue against it need to think through carefully is that smoking is an issue based on addiction. most people who smoke which they had never taken it up. they tried to stop and they cannot. that is the point. that choice is being taken away from them. as a doctor i have seen many people in the hospital desperate to stop smoking because it is something which is killing them and they cannot.— and they cannot. their choice has been removed. _ and they cannot. their choice has been removed. what _ and they cannot. their choice has been removed. what about - and they cannot. their choic