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still with, us carol leonnig, asha rangappa, and chuck rosenberg. what do we know about judge raymond diary. >> judge dearie isn't senior status, as a night of states district court judge in the eastern court of brooklyn. i hadn't had a privilege to see him, stephanie, but i've talked to a bunch of people who have. he's smart. he's humble. he's kind. he's fair, and that he's efficient. all things you want in a federal judge. i should add, it was also a federal prosecutor and an assistant u.s. attorney. he was the united states attorney for that district, the eastern district of new york, before president reagan put him on a federal bench. and he has also served on the foreign intelligence surveillance court. the court comprised of federal judges who review the most sensitive national security matters, for surveillance and for searches, typically, submitted by the fbi. so well versed in counter and counterterrorism matters. well versed in the handling of classified documents. and as i mentioned, a widely respected, admired, and well loved federal jud

chuck rosenberg, thank you very much. still ahead. donald trump's attempt to turn insurrectionists into heroes, the dangerous glorification of one of the country's most darkest moments. after this. there's a scene at the white house yesterday the perfectly embodies the strange contradictions of the american economy at the moment. president joe biden congressional democrats celebrating the passing the inflation reduction act hours after new inflation numbers from august for worse than expected which in turn sense stock market spiraling. the dow having its worst day since june, 2020. now under biden, the u.s. has recovered all the jobs lost in the pandemic. this july it had the lowest unemployment level in 50 years, poverty level was lowest. they saying the drop was largely attributable to the enhanced child tax credit enacted under president joe biden's american rescue plan. if the persistent high inflation has lots of people scared that the federal reserve will induce recession to get rid of it. so what actually is going on with his v

we will take a deeper dive with betsy woodruff swan national correspondent for "politico" and chuck rosenbergattorney and senior fbi official. betsy and chuck are msnbc contributors. chuck, i'm going to let you respond to what ken just said, it's confusing what the defense is. we know in the hearing that trump's lawyers compared this basically keeping an overdue library book, simplifying the dispute to that level. what do you make of that? >> yeah, i think that's a remarkably silly argument, lindsey. if i gave an overdue library book to a russian intelligence officer i don't think i would do very much harm to the national security of the united states, however, if i gave somebody like that, a russian intelligence officer, top secret sci classified information i could do grave damage to the national security of the united states. so i don't think lawyers do their clients any service at all by making foolish arguments in court. i understand that some of these arguments are not really intended for court, they're intended for public consumption, but if you are litigating something, lindsey, and y

chuck rosenberg, welcome back to the newshour.t is the release of the fbi filing and what they are saying here -- tell us about what the former president did with these documents. >> it tells us more about the documents than what the former president necessarily did with them. search warrants are executed to recover evidence. that was done lawfully with the authorization of a federal judge, but it doesn't necessarily tell you who did what, o packed the documents, who understood that there were classified materials within those documents, and who may have obstructed justice. it could've been the former president, it could have been people who work for him, they could've been doing it at his direction. a large portion of the fbi affidavit was redacted. a lot of answers to those questions are probably in those reactions. judy: and on the content question, what was in here? will we ever know what was here? >> maybe, and i know it's a frustrating answer, but of -- if charges are brought against the former president, likely you will see

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former missouri senator, political analyst, and a favorite on this hour, claire mccaskill, and chuck rosenberg joins us. former u.s. attorney and former senior fbi official. check, the special master is getting to work immediately. one of the first things he is doing as demanding trump show proof that he actually declassified these documents like he has claimed, and i want to share what our friend had to say about his move. >> if they don't answer it, it's pretty clear what he's going to do he is going to say, look, if you're not making the argument that they are declassified, they are classified on the face, government is telling me they're classified, it walks, talks, looks like a duck, there is an affidavit saying there is a doc, and you're not saying that it's not a duck so, guess what? they are classified. >> what do you think, chuck? it's a duck? >> that sounds right, yeah. i'm not sure i'd go with a duck metaphor, stephanie i think there's a simpler way to explain it. if the documents are classified, and president trump, former president trump thinks he declassified them at some point,

joining me now for more on this breaking news, ari melbur, kristin welker, chuck rosenberg and suzann craig. chuck, to you. this is a civil lawsuit. at the moment, there's no fear of any kind of criminal penalties, prison time, anything for former president trump or his children. they are referring this to the manhattan d.a. and the irs for future investigation. fill in what you see as the gravatus of this. >> quite grave. you are right, andrea. this is a lawsuit. they are suing the trumps and their organization. they are not charging them with a crime. that's a very important distinction. in a civil lawsuit, which the attorney general of new york state just described, they are seeking regress. they will bar the company and members of the company from financial transactions. they will seek disgorgement for compensation from the company in the tune of about a quarter of a billion dollars. even if the attorney general succeeds in this, nobody goes to jail as a result of this. it's a civil lawsuit. that means that she has a lower burden of proof at trial. in a civil case, that burden of

let's bring in chuck rosenberg, nbc news contributor and former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck, why was it significant that the special master, judge dearie, questioned the issue whether these are classified or not? >> well, the judge simply wanted the trump lawyers to tell him, to tell the court, whether or not they're going to claim that mr. trump had declassified them. they were saying that to the press. they've been saying that outside of court that claim is floating around. but the only place it matters, shepherd, is in court. so judge dearie wanted to hear from them whether they were going to say that in court to your point, they still refused to do it the classified documents are important for a number of reasons, including the intelligence community of the united states needs to do a full damage assessment to see if anything was compromised and if stuff was compromised, to try and fix that compromise. and they need the fbi to help them do it so the judge knows, and he's exactly right, that he needs to resolve this question and resol

chuck rosenberg, i start with you.brief as very strongly articulating the damage to national security that judge aileen cannon's ruling would do. is that what leaps out at you? take us through what strikes you. >> i thought it was a brilliant motion, nicole. they did a couple of things. and it made me smile, because i remember sitting at the department of justice surrounded by attorneys, all of whom were smarter than me, coming up with ideas like they included in this motion. so, what they basically told the judge is, a, we're going to appeal, and b, we want you to stay the worst part of your order and then in great detail, they explained what the worst part of her order was and why it was so bad, and it was simply this. judge, when you told us we could do a damage assessment, we could let the intelligence community look at the documents that might have been compromised, and they could figure out how much harm was caused, at the same time, you told us that we can't continue the criminal investigation, but judge, the fb

then, chuck rosenberg on what could be the end of the mar-a-lago special master fight.anning the flames of extremism at a pro coup vigil. >> there is just so horrible what happened to her. >> the genuine danger from the ex presidents attempt to martyr the insurrectionists and what republicans are losing by nominating even more magana to new hampshire and beyond. when all in starts right now. >> good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. less than two months until these midterm elections. people all over the country as we've documented our mobilizing to protect abortion rights. while republican politicians across the country are pledging to ban abortion anyway they can. >> in mississippi, the republican house speaker there said that his state quote, has an opportunity to leave the nation in protecting, promoting and supporting life. >> it's a pretty remarkable statement for a number of reasons. now, it's true, mississippi has been a leader in the assault on abortion rights in this country. no question about. that it was their law, mississippi's law and its challenge to

ryan reilly, kimberly atkins and chuck rosenberg, a former senior fbi official.n, you are on set. we have been talking about this. walk us through the developments over this weekend, for those catching up, really what impact this will have on the investigation. >> the biggest part of this and what was really -- what people were waiting for was whether that special master was going to lock at questions of executive privilege. had this been a more narrow ruling, gone on the narrow path, she could have said we will look at attorney/client privilege, that would be a subset of the documents -- >> she leans in favor of the former president's claims, what he was arguing for. >> yeah. the executive privilege claims are in uncharted waters. that's something that hasn't been done this way before. usually, special masters are about attorney/client privilege. the most recent example was rudy giuliani's phones. that was a more complicated matter because he was an attorney. he had clients to deal with. that could have been the path she gone done. but she decided to make this b

and truck chuck rosenberg, he spoke on the last program, former eastern district attorney for the eastern district of virginia. -- cia's backyard. and he was absolutely right that oftentimes you see a classified record and you sort of scratch your head trying to figure out well why is that significant? it says that putin has apple jacks for breakfast every morning. why would that be classified? that is not the classified information. it is the source that provided that information to one of our agencies. and that placement of that source. and if anyone who knows the information if the russians got ahold of that, they could know, well, there are only two people that know that putin gets applejacks for breakfast every morning. and that's what's would be burnt. hopefully, we will never find out something like that because, again, it's too sensitive. but the dni and other agencies will assess whether or not the damage, if, any has been caused by who has been present at mar-a-lago, who had access to the boxes based on the surveillance film that the fbi seized by a search warrant in late june.

chuck rosenberg, thank you for your perspective. ali vitali, thank you for your reporting. carol leonig. thank you as well. we have team coverage of wednesday'sag hearing, i will b with i katy tur and andrea mitchell at noon eastern right here on msnbc. >>> a lot more to get torn heren this show, including taking you live to rome after italy elected the first far right prime minister since world war ii. what it means for democracy across all of europe and reaction from here in the u.s. >>> plus new texts between former nfl quarterback brett favre and soon to be governor in the welfare fraud scandal and what we hear from the court filing coming up. >>> and mandatory evacuation in parts of florida right now as the state braces for a direct hit from hurricane ian. we will take you live to the storm's path next. storm's path next. new salonpas lidocaine flex. a super thin, flexible patch with maximum otc strength lidocaine that contours to the body to relieve pain right where it hurts. and did we mention, it really, really sticks? salonpas, it's good medicine. ♪ hisamitsu ♪ the

i think chuck rosenberg in a recent op-ed keyed in on it. this is kind of a bit of a sideshow. at the end of the day, these documents will go to federal prosecutors. at the end of the day, based on everything we think the filings will go, the way courts will rule on them, you're still looking at an investigation that should have the documents they're looking for by the end of november. i think it's also important to note, you know, there was really no chance that an indictment was going to be filed against anybody in this case if they indict anybody prior to the election. that was probably something that wasn't going to occur. frankly, the time line of the fbi looking at these documents and moving forward with the work they need to do with federal prosecutors was going to take several months, so i don't know how much this necessarily backs up the process. time will tell. >> vaughn, talk a little bit about judge dearie. the trump team has found he might be a tougher customer than some would believe the home team advantage they got from the district court judge in florida, judge

attorney and senior fbi official, chuck rosenberg. chuck, do you agree with napolitano's assessment there of the potential for an indictment? >> the potential? sure. his certainty, i don't know where that comes from just yet, mika. look, i wish i was as certain about things in life as he seems to be. you know, folks pick horses to win races all the time. sometimes they're right, and they go to the window and collect money. they had absolutely no idea what they were doing when they laid down the bet. that could be the case here. i think it is a serious matter. the search warrant indicated that, that crimes had been committed and evidence of crimes were found at mar-a-lago. that we know. but who is responsible for it? who will be charged? that will be determined. that stuff, mika, was in the redacted portion of the affidavit that we're all anxious to read. unless judge napolitano has some access we don't, i really don't understand why he is saying what he is saying. it doesn't make sense to me yet. >> chuck, tell me, from everything you'

. >> frank, chuck rosenberg gave us a nice frame around which to look at the doj subpoena. it was judges don't like to be told what to do by a higher court, the appellate court and judges don't like to be asked to go back and revisit and reverse their own decision, but judge aileen con nor put herself in the box that she finds herself in and she's been rebuked of either being ignorant of national security and imperative, and that's the bottom line and bill barr thinks so and he was the beacon to put their finger on the scale ahead of doj. even he thinks that the special master was a red herring. where do you see doj of national security as a priority and of being allowed to continue to have clarity legally so they can protect classified documents and u.s. national security interests? >> so, first, i applaud doj's intention to appeal here, and i have to tell you this is a scorching rebuke, almost in the form of a master class for the judge in how things are supposed to work and what national security is and really, although they don't come right out and say it, they say, you

joining us now, senior legal affairs reporter at politico, josh gerstein and former fbi official chuck rosenberg. i guess, first of all, chuck, can we start with basics here. anywhere, is there anywhere in our government documents and basic values rules, laws, anywhere, where a president can just wave a wand and declassify documents himself and take them to his club? >> well, it's good to start with basics, mika. so, presidents have declassification authority, but not in this way. and, by the way, and you made this point i think abundantly clear just a moment ago. if the president in fact declassified or tried to declassify, or declassified some of it, number one, there would be a process. number two, evidence that it happened. federal judges are used to having people answer their questions in court. the things that work at a political rally or in a playground don't work before a federal judge. when he asks simply, is their any evidence this is declassified? should have gotten an answer. when he didn't, told him everything he needed to do. it didn't happen. if it did happen, they would tell him.