we'll get to the bottom of how much those arguments hold water in a moment with chuck rosenberg, butst, we will exclusively speak with hunter biden's attorney, abbe lowell. let's lay out what david weiss says he found. there are nine counts in the 56 page indictment, including three felony counts, accusing biden of engaging in a four-year scheme to willfully avoid paying $1.4 million in taxes. instead, using that money on, quote, drugs, escorts, and girlfriends, luxury hotels, and rental properties, exotic cars, clothing and more. from the indictment, a $1,500 venmo payment to an exotic dancer at a club. the exotic dancer had not sold him any art work. health care benefits to girlfriends, quote. these payroll expenses were treated as business expenses. college tuition for his daughter, quote, the professional and outside service schedule included a $30,000 payment to columbia university. and some $43,000 at chateau marmont which was just a portion of the nearly $134,000 spent on hotels. incredibly, some of the most damming details in the indictment do not come from any investigation

also with me is chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official and msnbc contributor. anthony, chuck, it's great to see both of you in person, on set. we got a lot to talk about. let's start with the colorado supreme court ruling. anthony, is it inevitable that the supreme court will get involved in this? >> it absolutely is inevitable that this goes to the supreme court. i think what struck me about this case and, in particular, the colorado ruling, is trump's response to the colorado ruling, jonathan. he tried to make the argument that he is not an insurrectionist, despite what all of us on january six. in the months leading to january six. i remember quite well, september 2020, he was on a national debate stage, and he was pressed about, asked to condemn violent right-wing extremists, and he declined to do that. he tells the proud boys to stand back and stand by. i look ahead to december 2020 of that same year, and he sent out a tweet, come to d. c., it will be wild. people show up by the busloads, jonathan, and

with his name on it here, and he has his name invested in the city. >> ken dilanian, lisa rubin, chuck rosenbergalmost called you chuck scarboro, an anchor in new york city. thank you so much for joining us. >>> coming up, what changes could come to the u.s. border, and are they workable? one dhs official tells nbc news some of the policies being debated by the senate could quote, break the border. >>> plus, arrests in europe. police in three countries say they have stopped suspected hamas terrorists from attacking jewish institutions. >>> and back here at home, president biden spoke to the families of american hostages, what he told them. >>> and rudy giuliani backs out of testifying in his defamation damages trial, leaving the defense without any witnesses to take the stand. what his lawyer admitted about giuliani's behavior in today's closing argument. we are back in 60 seconds. 0 sec. he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. libert

joining me now is chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official now an msnbc contributor are, and msnbc legal analyst and not so secret weapon lisa rubin. do you prefer the lorax or the cat and the hat or is the grinch your go to? >> i think this is green eggs and ham tonight. they are endlessly trying to peddle as green eggs and ham this incredibly contradictory story. and yet all of the judges they encounter unlike character in the seuss book do not want to eat green eggs and ham. >> first, i will ask you both, and chuck, let me go to you here. i'm not a lawyer and i did not goer to law school, but citing e grinch and making the excuse of an appeals process should not be expedited because people need to celebrate the christmas holidays seems far-fetched to me. what was your reaction to that? >> i thought it was juvenile. i'm glad you went to lisa first because she was obviously well prepared on the dr. seuss references. i am not. i will tell you. this. on any holiday military officials, federal law enforcement of

for that, chuck rosenberg, i will turn to that.t it's unlike others that we have seen in michigan and minnesota. this is sort of a paradigmatic example of why you need the supreme court to address the issue and to issue a rule so that all 50 states are doing the same thing. whether you loathe mr. trump or whether you love mr. trump, i think everyone would agree it's best to have one set of rules, and so it may be the case that colorado and maine have it right as a matter of law. it may be the case that they have it wrong as a matter of law. you know, i think we ought to let in this conversation with a dose of humility. i may be completely wrong, but i think colorado and maine have it right, you know, i think the president did engage in an insurrection. i think the disqualification provision of the 14th amendment applies to the office of president. that's just my opinion. i don't have a vote. i literally don't have a vote. there are nine votes that will ultimately matter, and we do need the supreme court to step in and to announce a

attorney and msnbc contributor chuck rosenberg.ck, when you look at this outcome, what are the implications for other cases for donald trump? and i think the question everybody asks is, will rudy giuliani ever have to pay a dime of anything to anybody, or how does he actually truly experience accountability here? >> yeah, you know, that's a great question, mika. so the jurors' verdict, the $75 million in punitive damages sends a very clear signal to anybody inclined to do what mr. giuliani did not to do it. what he did was vile and egregiously wrong and dangerous. i don't know he has the money to pay. i think the odds of ms. freeman and ms. moss getting $148 million are about 148 million to 1. it is very unlikely to happen. they may get something. they certainly deserve it. their reputations -- >> but what's the impact on rudy giuliani's life moving forward? what's the impact on his life after this verdict? >> you know, he is a broken man, joe. i've never really enjoyed, you know, this whole thing of schadenfreude, taking delight i

chuck rosenberg, i'm sorry that we sprung all of this trivia on you without adequate preparation, you passed with flying colors. lisa reuben, -- thank you for your time. we have a lot more ahead tonight, and we are back before the supreme court. with the justices are considering, and how their decision could impact women, even in states where abortion is legal. but first, the impossible logic behind house republicans newly launched impeachment against joe biden. congressman adam schiff joins me now coming up next. stay with us. g up next. stay with us stay with us i recommend sensodyne. sensodyne toothpaste goes inside the tooth and calms the nerve down. and my patients say you know doc, it really works. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ generalized myasthenia gravis made my life a lot harder. but the picture started changing when i started on vyvgart. vyvgart is for adults with generalized myas

chuck rosenberg, i'm sorry we sprung all the dr. trivia on you without all adequate proposition. you passed it with flying colors. lisa reuben -- thank you for your time. we have a lot more ahead tonight. abortion is back before the supreme court. what the justices are considering and how their decision could impact women, even in states where abortion is legal. >>> but first, the impossible logic behind house republicans newly launched impeachment inquiry against joe biden. congressman adam schiff joins me on that, coming up next. stay with us. stay with us as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me tod

. >> reporter: chuck rosenberg is the administrator in charge of the dea. >> you're talking about ana says the synthetic drug problem in the u. s. originates far outside our borders. >> the chemicals come from abroad. often it's processed or assembled and packaged here. but the chemicals are coming from overseas. >> are most of these chemicals coming from china? is that fair to say? >> most of it's coming from china. >> reporter: in china, for the most part, it's been perfectly legal to manufacture and sell most synthetic chemicals. in fact, over the last seven years, the "china pipeline, " as it's called, has made so many of these chemical compounds, it's created a whole new world of drug dealing. a world where drugmakers and dealers rarely meet, and where drug buys take place online. how easy is it for someone here in america to buy these chemicals? >> too easy. extremely easy. somebody sits down at their keyboard, orders it over the internet, and it shows up in a package. they're reasonably savvy in the way they package it, and you can only imagine how many packages are transiting

chuck rosenberg was asked by "new york times" about trump using these case to say help him political.nsion you want to analyze it. the turbulence is particularly dangerous. if he's convicted, he's set the stage for a large portion of the population to reject the jury's verdict. he also has a call to arms. there's other dangers that attend to his rhetoric. >> i'm mindful of our friend who you work with, appeared in her conversations, they have on which talked by autocracy creeping in is people stopping to listen to court orders. if he either does not obey an order or his followers don't accept it, the faulk that people no longer accept the legitimacy of court is a sign of things to come. he's warned us who he will be. >> there will be one jury here and that's the american voters. this is now a "we" issue. this comes down to who we are going forward. do we care about law and order anymore? do we care about freedom of speech? freedom of the speech? do we care about not putting political opponents in jail? >> we've been there. american voters did speak -- >> i'm talking about this time. >