chuka umunna: i think everybody talks about it. there is a difference between evasion and avoidance. i do not think it is a difference between planning and egregious avoidance. i often have this discussion with business leaders. i have talked to them about all of this. one thing that we have trust issues in politics and something we are not in a position to lecture but we have to recognize in spite of the incredible thing british business has done for the country in providing jobs, we have trust issues in business. it is a very unattractive argument to make to your customer, your communities in which business exists. the law allows us to do certain things and we're going to do them. if you do not like them, frankly you politicians should get out. there are lots of things that we as citizens would like to do and the law allows us but we do not do because of our care and consideration for other people in society. that is the starting point for this debate. quite a lot of consensus on this of all political parties, people think what w

chuka umunna: i would not go that far. it is worth reflecting on what is projected. .anages to implement what is proposing is the imf in terms because an expenditure and we're looking at something twice as deep as anything that it happened in any parliament. what a that will mean for public services and all of the things that this is want to invest in life skills and infrastructure and where it will be achievable. anna: that has us falling us nicely. we have fiscal responsibility something people and it is obvious know a lot about. tax is something people know about.