actually i met a cio from texas recently chief vex officer from texas who has a strategy to invest in companies with large lobbying expenses. >> okay. >> you could say is that important enough fact to disclose? but in fact there are people investing off of that strategy and making money apparently. they say there's a 4 to 1 return. >> because if they've got large lobbying expenses they might get legislation that is working in their favor. >> one could also invest over are they making wise political decisions? i think it's important information for investors. >> some of the pension investment money using it to finance innovation, new companies, north carolina based companies? >> that's right. i was elected to this office in '08. and in '09 a lot of distrust of government of finance of pensions and so one way to make what the pension is doing tangible to let people know that we are contributing to the economic future of the state was to invest in high growth companies in north carolina. good news is with our university system and the r&d dollars we get we have a lot of business opportun

and thank you to edward wytkind the president of the transportation trades department of the afl-cio.tdd represents the vast majority of amtrak employees. when we come back, we are going to seattle to talk about arctic drilling to the north and we will be talking about the gulf and bp and the person who has come close is to the bp oil spill. stay with us. ♪ [music break] amy: welcome to our students visiting. that song "saltwater," by julian , lennon. this is democracy now! democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. nermeen: the obama administration has tentatively approved shell's plans to begin oil extraction off the alaskan coast this summer. federal scientists estimate the arctic region contains up to 15 billion barrels of oil and shell has long fought to drill in the icy waters of the chukchi sea. amy: environmentalists warn arctic drilling will pose a risk to local wildlife and exacerbate climate change. they fear that a drilling accident in the icy arctic ocean waters could prove far more devastating than the deadly 2010 gulf of mexico spil

. >> reporter: afl-cio president suggests that unions could hold back an endorsement or offer a week nod. >> it will be tougher to get them to do work. >> reporter: that despite clinton working to keep the left happy. flip-flopping on issues like same-sex marriage and driver's licenses for illegal immigrants and trying to win over african-american voters in south carolina by doubling down on the president. >> i went to work for him because he and i shared many of the same positions about what should be done in the next presidency. >> there could be danger in teeing up a third obama term though there is good news for clinton in a new poll. she is beating any republican contender with 60% of voters believing she has strong leadership quality. >> standing up for you, making a difference for you. >> reporter: the voters may not buy talk of her being a middle class champion amid pricey speaking fees. the poll found voters divided 48% to 47% on whether she cares about their needs and problems. 53% say she's not honest and trust worthy as new details spill out about the clinton foundation.

jonathan: mark burgess, cio at columbia threadneedle's investments.l clear signal for its acquisition of aer lingus. ♪ jonathan: good morning, and welcome back to "on the move." let's get back to the u.k. and get a business view on the queen's speech from john longworth, director at the chambers of commerce. i read your open letter to the prime minister and featured was the referendum. the debate seems to have shifted. when shall we do it question mark the view at the moment is we should bring it forward. do we share that view? john: we think it should be held as soon as practical to reduce the level of uncertainty and the period of uncertainty. it depends on what the prime minister thinks is the right time. if we do it in 2016, great. jonathan: what is practical? john: what is practical when the promised or thinks he has a reform agenda to bring to the people of the u.k. colleagues want no further explorations. we need to look at our relationship with europe. very important for the business community. jonathan: there is across europe a fatigue with t

i am rich trumpkin president of the cio. talk is cheap in washington dc. we hear a lot of noise but little action. instead, congress lurches from self-inflicted crisis to self-inflicted crisis, engaging in debates and wasting precious time with political posturing. it makes you wonder what the real priorities are. let me give you an american priority. one shared by working people and business leaders everywhere. i am talking about public investment in america's infrastructure. roads, bridges, pipelines, waterways. ports, electrical grids, internet and phone lines and drinking water. these investments benefit everybody. those investments create jobs. those investments build america. if you want to spend money to make money, build infrastructure. build bridges. expand ports and modernize railways. safe roads and transit systems can get workers to work and home everyday. companies get manufacturing goods to market. all of our infrastructure system needs attention. the most immediate concern is the highway and transit trust fund. once again, it is about to exp

the founding president of the afl-cio was george meaney, of catholic immigrant stock.three of these people were also raised in the catholic church, while the only one who wasn't raised catholic, named kirkland, took his advanced degree from a jesuit university, georgetown. born and bred catholics played a huge role in the history of american labor and its leadership, and they continue to play an important role, i would say, even today, both in and outside the afl-cio. mary kay henry, the leader of the nation's largest general union, the service employees international union, argues that the values instilled in her catholic upbringing led her to her position as a leader. this helped shape the outlook of labor's leadership over generations. the impact of catholicism on labor's vision in the u.s. is also, i think, also evident. the concept of the living wage which has been revived over the last couple of decades, as some of the people in this room well know, has been theorized and popularized more than a century ago by catholic theologians, johnny ryan -- john a ryan. the

the head of the afl-cio is saying no to the trade deal. he says a bad trade deal is worse than no deal at all. the afl-cio is the country's largest trade union federation. he opposes fast-track legislation that would let president obama present congress with proposed trade agreements. >>> the six bills aimed at helping veterans are one step closer to passage this morning. the house passed the measures yesterday. the bills now go to the senate. one would give preference to government contractors who employ veterans full-time. other bills would help veterans get spall business loans. >>> the -- owe small business loans. >>> the obama administration raised $500 million last year. many come from donors. the largest donation of a million dollars came from the founder of a chicago-based news web corporation. >>> d.c. flexing. the district just nabbed the top spot as fittest city out of 50 in the nation according to the 2015 american fitness index report which is out today. this is the second year in a row we've taken the god. the report crefds t

dan iverson, the new cio is doing the opposite.iz: do you think john chambers is going to stand me up? >> who would stand you up. liz: i had to ask my own husband out on our first date. starbucks. >> big spender, starbucks? i went to arturo's pizza with my wife. liz: charlie from westchester, not the bronx! >> there's going to be a story. it's going to be great. a q&a with me in playboy. liz: playboy, are you nude? >> no, not nude. it's playboy, it's nude ladies. he asked me about my boxing. in his question, he said did you box in the bronx. what was your record? i didn't. my boxing coach is still alive, marsh haden. liz: in westchester. >> he would flip out if he saw you. he's proud of me. liz: such a shock, you box. >> the article is great. i'm fully clothed. i did talk about ron in the article. what do you think i said? liz: very lovely and friendly things. >> no, i didn't. liz: the new issue. >> the one with the playmate of the year. i'm the playmate of the year. liz: as we learn more about the horrific philadelphia train derai

he became when he became to america the international director of george at the afl-cio. he always knew communism and understood it because of michael ross. there was always a division the trade unions understood the leadership and with communism meant for the workers. my mother and father lived in moscow from 29 to 36 and he was arrested she got out of russia because she put me on her passport as a british subject. we we've lived and i we lived and i grew up in greenwich village in the 40s. her friends norman thomas sydney, james burnham, many of the leaders of the socialist movement if you will in those days. i was a child in that world and the world and my mother entertained refugees and i would hear as a child these god awful stories of those that escaped as communists. i grew up learning about what it all was. i remember her jokes. one of them was adam and eve are communists. they lived on for its and vegetables can have no clothing to wear and thought they were in paradise. [laughter] that's one of them. there was another one where they visited a village and an old

at a very high level kind of give an overview of this and then cio bill kim will come up and discuss in more detail what the planned program for the emr project is. as you can see, we've got projected costs of about $12.8 million in the first year and 29.2 in the second year. in our previous projections, that first year cost was higher. we've been able to kind of whittle that down as we take a closer look at what the timing of the staffing will be for that program. we previously projected we kind of be hiring them all at a single time. i think that revised plan it will phase them in and put some of the supervising and director positions in first. that allow us to phase in some of the salary costs. we're also paying for some of those costs in the current year with savings that we've identified from our current year's budget. that also allows us to reduce that first year cost. the second year is fully funded in the plan that we have presented previously and went to the committee on information technology at $29.2 million. turn it over to bill. >> good afternoon commissioners. i'll go t

relation to cybersecurity in relation to the chieftains -- information security of the company the cio and the board and the ceo? >> they are mostly obstructionist. [laughter] it's one of the reasons why we as a country and congress is making good progress on this have to offer clarity to those gc's. the

we also have a senior adviser and a former cio -- cia officer. you actually signed this letter that would publish today, why did you sign it and what do you want from the president? guest: yes, i did. what i'm looking for is for strong internet security. i think it has caused economic growth. it has allowed us to do so many things in cryptography and it is a fundamental part of providing internet security. i don't want it to be weakened. i think that's going backwards. we need to move forwards to protect data from criminal foreign governments and even our own government. emily: paul, what exactly is weakening the data are providing a backdoor actually means? why would the government want these companies to introduce vulnerabilities into their systems? doesn't i mean everybody else could get into? -- in as well? guest: this theory is you can put a god key that could read everybody's data. but the problem is how do you control that, how do you make it so the policies work with all the different foreign governments that will immediately want access?

jeff was always going into walmart and getting their cio, going in and getting the best people he possiblythat is what travis has done. emily: when you think about competitors like halo, just got out of the u.s. market, lyft and sidecar, do they stand a chance? gurley: i don't know. i have often thought about it like this. first of all, a lot of the money goes to the driver. it is a lower margin business. i think it is tough to compete. i think travis is very competitive. emily: what else can uber do? we have seen them delivering christmas trees. kittens. what is next? gurley: when they raised money, the deck had zero slides on these types of things. whatever might be next. that is not to say the company is not interested. they are testing food delivery, they have done flower delivery on valentine's. i think it is something they are watching. i think, for the time being, everyone knows that focus is critical to great execution, and the opportunity in front of us is immense. emily: what about taking on fedex or ups? gurley: i would say we are not as well situated for that type of thing as w

did you know a recently afl-cio report shows u.s. latino workers are 18% more likely to be killed on the job than workers of any other racial ethnic group-- 18%, you guys. that is messed. you i don't even know what that is about. i don't know how they fig outer a number like that. iment to talk about the employers because these are the people responsible for that. how do these ploirs put their employees into such unsafe conditions. it's absolutely appal-- what's that noise? what's going on. the lights are sparking. sorry. that everyone. hey, ricky. ricky velez, can you come out here? >> what's up, larry. >> larry: ricky velez everyone. ( applause ) can you do me a favor and check out those wires on the shelf. >> i'm on. >> larry: there's a little arcing and it doesn't seem safe. as i was saying we have to pass regulations in industry like construction-- >> arrgghh! i fixed it. >> larry: oh thanks ricky. appreciate it. >> happy cinco de mayo boss. >> larry: you, too, man have a happy cinco de mayo. ricky velez everybody. he's so nice.

the afl-cio, which does represent laborers in or country, did an analysis of c.e.o. salaries and, in one instance, found that c.e.o.s around the country are earning 373 times what their lowest-level entry-level workers are making, and the difference is getting bigger. they're getting bonuses, they're getting their pensions and things that do tie in and make a lot of money. this at a time when some of the workers can't even make ends meet because they're doing, as i said, hourly jobs that really don't afford a family. what do you think should happen here? the c.e.o.s can make an argument for they're running companies nationwide. they deserve something. but do they deserve 373 times what their workers are making. >> oy. >> walmart is getting jumped on, in particular. >> well, the c.e.o. of walmart came up from the worker ranks. >> exactly. and he said it's out there for everybody, "go get yours." >> that's -- i always -- consider the source. not that it sounds blatantly partisan, but of course -- and what is making mean? is that pension? is that i.r.a.? is that other f

scarlet: the cio of global credit spoke with olivia sterns and pimm fox to explain why he has been bullish>> i think that it strong. the fact is that housing starts 15% and the to overall economy has grown at only 4%. we have record low inventories at 14 year lows. we have added 2.9 million jobs in the last year. you have got one million more job openings. importantly that 25-year-old to has addedd cohort almost 800,000 jobs, the strongest in 15 years. there is significant pent-up demand and we are still bullish after having been bullish for the last three years. give us more detail on why you think the housing market is strong? if you look at new construction plus spending on furnishings and furniture, from 5% of gdp today, 2007-- go back to 2006 in it made up almost double that amount. so, how is the housing market strong by comparison? we are: -- alix: basically -- >> we are basically cyclically correcting and you can get strong growth rates. the fact is that if we go from 1.1 million housing starts to what we think will be 1.5 million three years from now, that's still growing at a 10%

joining us now is david cio of matrix asset advisors. good morning to you.you think the fed minutes are important at all? they're outdated and we've seen a continuation in the bond route and more disappointing data. >> we think the market is obsessed with them and will focus on them but we're not expecting anything dramatic or new to come out of them. it's going to give the fed a lot of flexibility. >> we're once again at record highs. what do you think? do you want to continue to buy into those rallies or do you want to wait for another pull back? >> ultimately 2015 will be a goodyear for stocks. we would not chase rallies. you just had the market move up about 3%. we don't think you have to chase this rally. we would be prepared to put money to work. any type of full back or sell off. >> what do you make of the recent one on that side and also earnings out of companies like walmart. >> well the economic data has been mixed in retail. lower oil prices didn't translate into better consumer spending. overall u.s. earnings were good and companies beat expectat

his membership is going to follow this blindly and hope that his members have forgotten that the afl-ciolinton in 2008. they are appearing to do so in 2016. the labor and influence are dwindling at an accelerated rate. and the quotation of the evening all about politics and we often bemoan the fact that plato once observed long ago one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. plato a philosopher and generally good guy. we are coming back, so is he with us. >> the six officers charged in the death of freddie gray they say that a fair trial in baltimore is impossible. christian adams joins us next. and an amazing video of poor daredevils and her encounter with an if you're an adult with type 2 diabetes and your a1c is not at goal with certain diabetes pills or daily insulin your doctor may be talking about adding medication to help lower your a1c. ask your doctor if adding once-a-week tanzeum is right for you. once-a-week tanzeum is an injectable prescription medicine that may improve blood sugar in adults with type 2 dia

this is according to the afl-cio which says he was workers are getting $36,000 per year while the average ceo is paid $13.5 million per year. company's are fighting a government plan that would make them reveal pay comparisons. tim armstrong may be more than $200 million richer after that sale of aol to verizon closes. and has stockceo options plus he also controls 1.7 million shares of aol and has received $34 million in salary and bonus the past five years. he says he will stay on it aol after the deal is complete. olivia: happy birthday, mark zuckerberg. he turns 31 years old today. he has more billions than he has years. the facebook founder is worth amost $35 billion, it's fortune that increased almost $400 million in the past 24 hours. he became the world's youngest billionaire at age 23 back in 2008. he is currently the 18th richest person on the planet. washington, d.c. sports fans know the agony of defeat this morning. sorry, folks. within the space of 27 minutes last night, they suffered through to play of losses. hawks scoredanta with two seconds to go giving them an 82-81 vict

who is aligning against the president, it is the people to his left, elizabeth warren and aflci afl-cio technologies -- texts every day go against this deal, this is an alignment of special interests my bigger problem is fast track a process, is potentially dangerous when either side has full old control we don't get transparency we're a republic that means our representatives should have a say in fast track they don't get a say. they don't get an up-and-down vote, but they get to reject it. neil: enough do, and enough are -- shared the skepticism but we'll get to a point where they say trade deals get bogged down, and never realized. to give president the republican or democrat this authority. >> i say this is very -- a pretty good reason to trust washington in this case, this is a democratic president putting a historic trade deal through and the support of the republicans that are going to make it happen. both parties acting in a politically unconventional way. neil: hillary clinton faces a devil of resistence on the left. it is haunting her is it a problem for her? >> i think part o

. >>> coming up afl-cio president joins us next. unveiling a new study about ceo pay. you can draw some conclusions about the conclusions right here on "squawk box". their list of the high he is paid chief executives after a quick break. [ male announcer ] your love for trading never stops. so if you get a trade idea about, say organic food stocks schwab can help. with a trading specialist just a tap away. what's on your mind lisa? i'd like to talk about a trade idea. let's hear it. [ male announcer ] see how schwab can help light a way forward. so you can make your move wherever you are. and start working on your next big idea. ♪ ♪ can it make a dentist appointment when my teeth are ready? ♪ ♪ can it track my crew's performance, and protect their heads? ♪ ♪ can it tell the flight attendant to please not wake me this time? ♪ ♪ at cognizant, we see opportunities for every company. to meet the new digital demands of their customers. can it process my insurance claim? like, right now? can it download a track while i'm sampling it? can

the afl-cio. the u.s. chamber of commerce. the brookings institution policy program. the american society of civil engineer and holding america's future. over the last few years, infrastructure we cast transformed from a handful of events led by a small group of organizations to a nationwide initiative. this week, more than 80 affiliate organizations will host more than 40 events from alaska to washington, d.c. and everywhere in between. scores of mayors and legislatures are raising this with their members. the service sector is bringing their story to our nation's leadership and we will hear from our highest elect did and federal agency officials throughout the week on federal actions to repair and modernize our aging infrastructure. ladies and gentlemen, the timing could not be more appropriate. 20 days. 20 days. that is all that separates us from a highway shutdown unless congress extends federal highway and other transit program funding. another short-term extension would be the you at this the 33rd time in just six years that congress failed. failed when faced wi

a whole host of issues where the chamber and afl-cio do not see eye to eye. i just saw mr. trumka and mr. donahue talking about trade. but on this issue, there is so much overlap. in organized labor and the largest business lobbying group are on the same page, why can't this get done? what is standing in the way? you have battled over this for years. what is in the way? panelist: it is pure politics right now. in the past, it is a bipartisan issue. never bickering. everyone knew you had to keep the country running. it is like your household. if something leaks, you have to fix it. if it needs painting, you have to fix it. the country needs to be replenished so we can stay competitive. everyone knows that. yet, they cannot figure out a way to get it done. it is just politics. no other reason for. they agree it needs to be done. that is what frustrates the american people, frustrates business, working people. this is an issue that needs to get done now. host: from the chamber's perspective? panelist: i completely agree on this. one thing that congress fails to make a distinct

so all the cios we talked to say they commit to the platform. there's so many analogies how do they interact and this is a revenue allocation game that becomes harder as they go forward. most customers are buying it as a platform. the core sales business will slow because it's the biggest business. biggest source of revenue. >> we'll leave it there. thanks for phoning in. we appreciate your analysis. let's get to a story that gripped the street during the trading day. a brutal day for the airline space. all the major airlines losing altitude on the back of southwest announcement that its passenger revenue will drop this quarter fueled in part by the company's international expansion. southwest saw its worst day since october of 2011. and doug parker talking about two subjects last night. >> a lot what you're seeing what's happening fuel prices have fallen. more capacity has been added. capacity in excess of the growth and demand so you're seeing revenues falling at a time that the -- you know, somewhat in a catch up for what's happening, our lar

presidential hopefuls, just yesterday, the retired neurosurgeon ben carson and hewlett packard cio karlie fiorona. >>> leading figures gathered for a memorial service honored david goldberg. he was ceo of the on line start up survey monkey and husband of facebook executive cheryl sandberg. forty-seven year-old died in an accident exercise nothing a mexican vacation resort on friday. authorities say that he apparently flipped on a treadmill and hit his head. david goldberg's case is annex stream one but injuries from treadmills are more common then you might think. but that doesn't have to be the case. "eyewitness news" reporter alexandria hoff has more information for us. >> reporter: undeniable king of cardio. >> i think it is vital to help you warm up so you can weight train properly whether it is walking or running. >> reporter: philly sweat city is called a train i for a reason. some training on something as simple as a treadmill can prevent injury. >> as long as you are healthy and aware very easy to use the treadmill very safely. they all have stoppage clips. >> reporter: experts wa

the old anarchist movement, the old cio the communist party.hatever you think of the communist party was sitting down integrating lunch counters long before king and the civil rights movement to that is -- history has been completely erased from american consciousness and the destruction of the state that ellen trevor writes about this annoy every tower the purging of the university center other books thousands upon thousands of journalists, social workers, high schoolteachers artis all of whom are pushed out of society and blacklisted. the reaction rates would show up with a list of teachers, no evidence they were gone and they could never get another job. the aclu are all and this was done by design. all of the blood that was spilled in american labor wars were the bloodiest in the industrialized world the blood of those workers that created the middle class and open up the space in our society, all of that sacrifice has been rolled back. we have to rise up with that same sacrificial spirit and that same ferocity of holding fast to moral impe

. >> kroft: he was joined by richard trumka, president of the afl-cio, who said that every billion dollarstransportation infrastructure would create 35,000 well-paying jobs. >> richard trumka: if business and labor can come before you united on this issue-- and we are united on this issue despite our sharp disagreements on a variety of other matters-- i think that should tell everybody something and tell it very loudly.but it was not heard during the midterm elections where there was virtually no public debate on infrastructure, and that has barely changed in the weeks that have followed. we wanted to talk to pennsylvania congressman bill shuster, the chairman of the house transportation committee and made numerous requests over the last five months for an on- camera interview. all of them were declined. we did the same with michigan congressman dave camp, chairman of the house ways and means committee, which has to come up with the money to fund transportation projects. we met with the same result. but we did talk with one of the committee members, earl blumenauer, a nine-term oregon demo

let's bring in rick rieder, the cio of fix income and global strategies at blackrock, overseas more thanin asset management. a volatile day, right, for rates. is that the way it's going to be? >> so i think so. i mean i think you know the uncertainty about when the fed moves creates volatility in the marketplace and everybody is trying to get a sense for it and pivot off what the data is today i think gave awe good sense that i know people talk about the consumer being dead and consumption being dead. i think today's data suggests that the economy is in pretty good shape. >> what is the probability of june being on the table for a rate hike? >> i think the bar is still high for it to be june. think september is the likely outcome. and they've gotten, they've got plenty of reason to go at this point. you know the jobs growth is significant. and we do think that you actually have an economy that's growing over the last 12 months at a 3% rate. we think they can do it. we think september has to be the base case at this point. >> is that going to be the start of something consistent with the

from a 12-year low, the risk-reward, this is the cio office saying that the risk reward might be tracedk down to around basically 108 is where you may see it back there. the other dynamic going on people are buying stocks and not hedging their euro position. the exchange rate of bonds, hedge euros. the least amount of money put into them since december. in march, it was 3.5 billion euros. people are buying stocks buying and not hedging. what happens next this is something that every central banker has a nightmare, it will change. it keeps on rising. it just keeps on marching higher. that is the thing with the aussie dollar. you got here at $79 $.92. but the bonds are rising and the money is flying despite what the reserve bank is doing. globally, the global markets are parking money in the global dollar -- in the aussie dollar. you are to see another rate cut in october. it is one of those real conundrums, rising yields in the bond market. that is enough to wipe the floor for every central banker. caroline: looking at some of the fx effects. helped by euro weakness, beating analyst esti

relationship to the cyber security in relationship to the chief information security officer of a company, the cio the board, and the ceo. >> they are mostly obstructionist weenies. [ laughter ] i was. [ laughter ] it's one of the reasons why we as a country and congress is making good progress on this have to offer clarity to the gcs, right? the chief information security officers think about the world the way we do right, security professionals, and the general councils are rightly worrying about things like liability, and what happens again? if this leaks, what happens? is this used against us in a competition? right? if a government contractor supplies something, what happens to that? is there an incentive not to reveal things? antitrust questions people raise. those are the gc questions, which are -- i asked them myself, good questions, and i think congress has to give comfort to those general councils to remove those concerns from the information sharing pipeline, and they are well underway. that's fairly easy to fix. harder to fix will be -- not fix -- but develop will be machine speed shar

union organizer and he encouraged him -- in fact, the day reagan was shot he gave a speech at the afl-cioand i think he probably took words that aaron had written and scribbled over them. he said to the polish workers you have the right to organize and determine your own future. nobody really paid attention to that speech because reagan was shot shortly thereafter. he gave encouragement to people to say you do not have to live like this anymore. then he targeted their economy. he understood that the soviet economy and the pentagon is one thing. that they say did not develop an industrialized economy. nobody was buying russian cars watches or anything except for natural gas. he targeted that by realizing that the price of oil -- if the price of oil went down, the russian government would be bankrupt. he encouraged the forces to get the prices down. one of his favorite generals to saudi arabia, he said to keep pumping oil. the price of oil went from $40 a barrel to $18 a barrel in nine months. the soviet government was on the ropes. they had crop failure. reagan did the final triumph and sa

enjoy the rest of >>> labor union strife over president obama's trade deal, we'll talk with afl-cio president richard trumka about that and a lot more. >> and money, money, money, running for president is all about the benjamins, the growing argument over the politics of cold hard cash. i'm susan page. >> and i'm derek mcginty. this is capital download. well, good morning to you and welcome to capital download. okay, susan, peoples like we've been talking about this trade deal business for weeks now. finally the senate passed the trade promotion authority and the house is about to pick it up, but the real battle is within the democratic party. >> that's right, derek. democrats are divided and long time allies like organized labor are making