we know that cipollone did. did you tell him that, you know, making that movement, which we know was planned as an otr movement why cassidy hutchinson at time's belabored testimony about a otr and scheduled movement was included in her public testimony, pat cipollone would have been the one warning about that movement. did you connect a stronger statement to perhaps lessening the violence? of course he did. what does he unlock in terms of tying trump's intent to all the criminal activity that took place that day? >> it seems like throughout all the critical time period, not just january 6th, but the days and even months leading up to it, pat cipollone was a key figure in meetings with the president, right, privy to the fraudulent elect tore scheme, john eastman scheme, privy to the president's reactions to the pushback against ideas like taking over the justice department and installing jeffry clark as the attorney general. like he had a front row seat to all of this. he and mark meadows i would say probably mor

the other is former white house lawyer pat cipollone. both of these are big gets for the district attorney down in georgia, fawnee willis. it gives you an idea how long-ranging her investigation. >> what news to the federal grand jury investigating the documents at mar-a-lago? >> we are learning this evening, that kash patel, a top adviser to former president donald trump has appeared before a federal grand jury who is investigating the mar-a-lago documents, the mishandling of sensitive documents there. and what we don't know is whether kash patel actually answered questions before the grand jury, or whether he invoked his 50 amendment right against self-incrimination. this is an important person. he has been deeply involved in this mar-a-lago documents dispute. >> sara murray, thanks. appreciate it. i want to talk to elie honig. he joins me now. elie, the testimony from pat cipollone and leffler, how significant could it be in the fulton county, georgia investigation? again, we don't know what they actually said, because cipollone obvio

if cipollone and philbin are compelled to testify here, do you think this grand jury will actually getr could they plead the fifth? >> i don't see them pleading the fifth at all. i think that actually mr. cipollone, for example, provided a lot of sound legal advice to the former president based upon the testimony that he provided to the january 6th committee. obviously, erica, in his testimony to that committee already certain questions he wants to be able to answer and under existing law i expect that the government is going to be able to -- the justice department will be able to get that tempur stimpur sunt to a gy subpoena. >> in your view how important is the testimony from these two gentlemen? what could it really tell us? >> we don't know for sure but it sure sounded to me like mr. cipollone was telling the former president not to have anything to do with the attack on january 6, not to be anywhere near the capitol, to try to stop, for example, the insurrectionists from attacking the capitol, try to warn them or urge them to turn away. in addition to that it appears that mr. cipo

evan, what can you tell us about the appearances by loeffler and cipollone? >> bianna, we know that the fulton county grand jury has been bringing in witnesses, they are obviously focusing on the efforts of the former president and some of his allies to overturn the georgia election results in 2020. kelly loeffler the former senator from georgia was a very -- was a very active ally, some emails, some text messages, rather, that have been obtained by the atlanta journal constitution portray her being in contact with people like marjorie taylor greene, a congresswoman who was a topical lie of the former president, trying to figure out ways to overturn and challenge the georgia election results. in the case of pat cipollone he was a top lawyer at the white house, white house counsel, in fact, and he pushed back at the former president and some of his allies as they were trying to figure out ways to claim that there was enough fraud to keep the former president in office, claiming that he had won georgia and other states. so these are witnesses that are very impo

the other one is former white house lawyer pat cipollone. both of these are big gets for the district attorney in georgia. it gives you an indication of how wide-ranging the investigation is. >> whether with testimony to the federal grand jury investigating the mar-a-lago documents? >> we are learning this evening my colleagues are learning that cash patel, one of the top advisers to former president donald trump, has appeared before a federal grand jury who is investigating the mar-a-lago documents, the mishandling of sensitive documents there. and what we don't know is whether cash patel actually answered questions before the grand jury or whether he invoked his fifth amendment right against self incrimination. he's been deeply involved in this mar-a-lago documents dispute. >> sarah murray, appreciate it. i want to talk to elie honig, former u.s. district attorney from the district of new york. elie, the testimony from white house passable one and former senator loeffler, how significant could it be in fulton county investigation? again, w

the jerry six committees interviews with white attorneys made it clear that pat cipo cipollone, ericed. >> what was communicated to me was that pat cipollone got the idea was this thought the idea was 90 and at one oh confronte eastman basically with the same sentiment. >> what were your prior interaction with eastman? >>> describe for me what he thought the regret he was in th statute, and he was walking through it at that time. and i said," hold on a second, want to understand what you're saying. you will see that you believe the vice president at the us president of the senate can be the sole decision-maker as to under your theory becomes the next president of the united states? and he said yes. i said, are you out of your acting mind. the vice president decided he could not buy into eastman's theories. >> with the impression that the vice president had directly conveyed his position on these issues to the president? >>> many times. >> and had been consistent in conveying it position to the president? >>> very consistent. >> you can basically not overstate the pressure trouble put

cipollone's testimony is corroborated by other staff members, including cassidy hutchinson. miss hutchinson describing what she heard from mark meadows. >> he had said something to the effect of you heard him, pat, he doesn't want to do anything more, he doesn't think they are doing anything wrong. >> former white house employee with national security duties similarly recalled an exchange between mr. cipollone and eric herschmann about president trump's inaction against the mob assault underway at the he said something like he seemed to relay that, you know, the president didn't want anything done. throughout this period, some of the president's most important political allies, family members and senior staff all begged him to tell his supporters to disburse and go home. they included sean hannity, laura ingraham and other allies at fox news, his son, donald trump jr., kevin mccarthy. officials in the cabinet and executive branch, all of them made appeals to donald trump which he rejected and he ignored. the select committee interviewed several people in the dining room with

wants a federal judge to make pat cipollone and patrick philbin come in front of the grand jury again in luke broadwater "the new york times" congressional reporter who has the story. luke, you're reporting prosecutors and i want to quote, trying to punch through the claims of privilege that the former president is using to hamper the investigation of his push to overturn the election. tell me more about what you're hearing from the sources that you're talking to and why they want cipollone and philbin to come back again. >> right, well pat cipollone and philbin, the two top lawyers at the end of the trump white house, they have already testified before the grand jury. but during that initial testimony, they invoked executive privilege and also attorney-client privilege. and what the federal prosecutors are hoping is that they can pierce through those privilege arguments to get a little bit more out of these men about some of those private conversations with donald trump. you will recall pat cipollone's testimony before the january 6th committee, which was played at some of the hearin

cipollone and eric hirschman about president trump's inaction against the mob of salt underway at the capitol. -- mob assault underway the capitol. he seemed to relay the president did not want anything done. some of the president's most important political allies, family members and senior staff begged him to tell his supporters to disperse and go home. they included sean hannity, laura ingraham and other allies of fox news, his son donald trump, jr., kevin mccarthy, others in congress and officials in the cabinet and executive branch, all of them made appeals to donald trump which he rejected and he ignored. the slight committee interviewed several people in the dining room with donald trump that afternoon and every single one of these witnesses told us he was watching the violent battles rage on television. he did not call his secretary of defense or the national guard, the chief of the capitol police or the chief of the metropolitan police department. >> to your knowledge, was the president in the private dining room the whole time the attack on the capital was going on or did he

cipollone was concerned with? >> in the days leading up to the 6th he had conversations about poten potentially the justice or defrauding the electoral count. >> joining us now, cnn political correspondent sara murray. what exactly could hutchinson offer prosecutors in georgia? what are their interest there's? >> look, obviously someone working in the trump white house and worked closely with former white house chief of staff mark meadows. prosecutors weren't able to secure meadows' testimony yet before the grand jury and the kind of person who could fill in a lot of gaps. talk about what she saw in the west wing around the 2020 election. the run-up and aftermath of that call between donald trump and georgia secretary of state wrathensburger, trump asked him to win georgia. meadows on that call. meadows made a surprises visit to a sga ballot audit site in 2020. she would know the details surrounding that, and of course could have details of all members meadows was involved in and what others were doing in the west

cipollone and mr.e at this point and, again, a lot of these moves especially for the federal investigation are designed to run the clock out through the midterms in the hopes that the committee will be disbanded and there will be a move away from january 6th. so i think cipollone's been a fairly agreeable witness thus far. and i expect you'll see him appear in the investigation, the federal prosecution in d.c. >> michael moore, thank you so much for being there for us. great to have you with us. >>> heated moments in a wisconsin courtroom as a jury finds the driver accused of plowing his suv into the waukesha christmas parade guilty. >> burn in hell you piece of -- >> hey, you are to be removed right now. you will not do that. >> that was the victim's family member. now, a jury convicted darrell brooks on six counts of first degree intentional homicide. that means a mandatory life sentence. six people died including an 8-year-old boy. when box drove his vehicle into the dozens gathered in waukesha last

those lawyers are former white house counsel pat cipollone and patrick philbin. trump waged a secret court fight to block former advisers from testifying before a federal grand jury investigating the events of january 6th. our senior justice correspondent evan perez is out front. evan, this could, i think, have a major impact on the investigation if the justice department succeeds and gets these former it trump lawyers to testify, right? >> right. it really does have the possibility of getting prosecutors into the inner circle of donald trump and his white house. pat cipollone was the former white house counsel. patrick philbin was his deputy. and they were there during some of these conversations as the former president was trying to impede the transfer of power in 2020, which is after the 2020 election, which is exactly what the prosecutors of the justice department are investigating. the justice department so far has been winning these secret proceedings that are going on at the courthouse here in washington. they got greg jacob and mark short, former aides to

cipollone and relayed, you know, the president didn't want anything done. throughout this time, some of the president's most important political allies, family members and senior staff all begged him to tell his supporters to disperse and go home. they included sean hannity, laura ingraham, and other allies at fox news. his son donald trump, jr.. house minority leader kevin mccarthy. others congress at officials in the branch made appeals to donald trump, which he rejected and he ignored. this led committee introduced several people who were in the dining room with donald trump that afternoon, and every single one of those witnesses told us that he was watching the violent battles rage on television. he did not call his secretary of defense or the national guard, the chief of the capitol of police or the chief of the metropolitan police department. [video clip] >> to your knowledge, was the president and that private dining room the whole time that the attack on the capitol was going on, or did he ever go to the oval office to the white house situation room

cipollone's testimony. >> gentlewoman yields back.gentleman from california, mr. schiff, for an opening statement. >> thank you, mister chairman. in our past hearings, you've seen direct evidence that president trump said to a crowd of his supporters to the capitol on january six, knowing they were armed and angry. this was the last, most desperate, and dangerous prong that was planned to disrupt the joint session and prevent the orderly transition of power. on the morning of the sixth, the secret service was at the ellipse screening the members of the crowd as they entered the rally site. and they notice something significant of the crowd. tens of thousands of people were outside the rally site, but did not want to go through the magnetometer's, metal detectors that were used to screen for dangerous weapons. since our last hearings, the select committee has received greater cooperation from the secret service. nevertheless, secret service text messages from this period were erased in the days and months following the attack on the ca

cipollone, mr. trump's former white house counsel, and mr.ty initially appeared before the grand jury last month after receiving subpoenas, but declined to answer some of the questions prosecutors had about advice they gave to mr. trump or interactions they had with him in the chaotic post election period. one of the people familiar with the matter said. today in south carolina judge ruled that mark meadows, donald trump's former final to the stacked, must testify to the fulton county special purpose gradually investigating the 2020 election. mark meadows a lawyer said that he will appeal that decision. also today, attorneys for donald trump accepted service of the subpoena that was issued by the january 6th select committee last week the subpoena sets a deadline for donald trump to handle over documents by november 4th, and to appear for an interview with the committee on november 14th. leading off our discussion of these points tonight is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and former chief of the criminal division. and the eastern

remember, pat cipollone was escorted on trump's anyone. i battled him in the first impeachment when he represented the former president. but he gave testimony already. it's not a surprise the former president wants to block him. he is harmful. he gives testimony to help to show the former president knew he lost the election and tried to interfere with it, which would violate a number of criminal statutes. remember, pat cipollone went before the january six committee. he said he knew the election was lost. he said he took steps and told the president a variety of things. so what we are seeing now is the department of justice using that evidence to build their case. and while there will be a side battle on legal issues the former president is going to lose issue that he keeps losing them in other cases like with john eastman, where the judge found there was a crime fraud and evidence of crimes -- the legal issues are sideshow. i think the, real main event, is the efforts by the doj to go full steam ahead and prove the crimes that have appear

and for cipollone, he was a top white house lawyer at the end of the trump administration.f the key meetings were trump and his allies discussed ways to subvert the election results. his testimony could also be very important. >> i gotta say, we're coming off of having talked about 16, having talked about mar-a-lago, having talked about the case out of new york, fulton county da plans to wrap up the investigation before the end of the year. you layer that on, which witnesses or charges are you expecting next? >> we'll see. the way this process works, the special grand jury will recommend charges. they can't formally indict anyone. they can recommend the da take action. we can see action early next year. but this investigations taking somewhat of a pause right now amid the midterm elections which are hot here in georgia as well as other parts of the country. they're gonna go back to it by the end of the year. i expect that some sort of formal recommendation, in the coming months. >> hot is intact -- in this case. greg, as always thank you so much for being with us. call it v

white house lawyers pat cipollone filled in. >> reporter: the justice department is asking a federal judge to compel the top two lawyers from donald trump's white house to provide testimony to a grand jury about conversations with the former president. former white house counsel pat cipollone and his deputy patrick philbin are among the top witnesses looking into trump's efforts to impede the transfer of power after the 2020 election. the two men pushed back against trump's false vote claims and legal wrangling that is playing out in a series of court fights, one that the justice department has been winning. in recent weeks they won a justice department order to obtain new testimony to former vice president mike pence. it's opened the way for the justice department's criminal investigation to reach further into the inner circle. all four men declined to answer some questions about the advice. they lost the battle between jacob and short when they lost last month. the disputes are likely to spawn several more court fights that will be crucial for prosecutors as they work to bring crim

we know that cipollone and philbin have talked about their experiences after the election and then leading one thing they're not answering either to the house select committee or the grand jury is exactly what -- advice they were giving trump themselves, direct conversations they had with trump. so what's happening is donald trump is trying to block those final answers from them, from going to the grand jury in this, claiming attorney/client privilege, executive privilege. so we were looking for a fight for justice to force them to answer. however this ends up, it has implications for other people in the white house, very high ranking, very close to trump who have also been subpoenaed. >> two top vice president advisers were compelled to testify in the last few weeks? >> reporter: that was the precursor fight to this. a similar fight where donald trump was trying to block these final answers from being given by two people in the vice president's office. greg jacob and mark short. in that court fight what we learned is the justice department won, donald trump lost, and both of those men had

. >> pat cipollone and pat philbin, they would like them to testify to the grand jury., with how aggressive the justice is going to be, how high are they willing to go? are they willing to go to the man at the top of this investigation. if you're in the justice department right now, who would you immunize to try to get their cooperation to find out what the potential connection, personal connection was to the violence and the insurrection? >> i think anybody who was going to help put the squeeze play on mark meadows, because i can't stress enough how much of a linchpin he is, is someone i'm eyeing for immunity. cipollone might be someone i might say, you know what, what can you tell me about mark meadows that will make him have to talk and if he has something that's good enough in terms of the investigation that i can piece together and corroborate with whatever else i have learned in reviewing documents, he might be the one i would offer to make queen for a day and give immunity for so i could get mark meadows and get something of value out of him and accessible. >> re

pat cipollone, of course, is an important witness.d to the january 6th committee, to the justice department's grand jury criminal investigation, and in the case of the fulton county grand jury of course they would want to know what he knows about what the former president was doing to try to overturn the election results there in georgia, claiming that there was fraud when of course the justice department had already found that there wasn't that kind of fraud. wolf? >> very important stuff indeed. evan, stay with us. we're also joined by our chief political analyst gloria borger, defense attorney shan wu, and cnn counterterrorism analyst phil mudd. gloria, what does the hiring of this conservative trial lawyer tell you about how seriously trump is taking this expected subpoena from the select committee? >> well, she's somebody well known to them, has worked with the trump team, has represented michael flynn, and it shows you that they feel, and i think rightly so, that no matter what happens in the end that they need to find a way to

overnight two prominent witnesses, kenny -- kelly loeffler and pat cipollone has appeared before a grand jury investigating efforts to overturn the election there in georgia. what do you make of this development? >> well, it is part of the continuing effort by the fulton county d.a. to build a case involving the efforts to overturn the georgia election. most famously president trump's call to the then secretary of state asking him to find 11,000 votes to turn the election over. what it really does demonstrate to me is that the fulton county d.a. is focusing on the one call that happened. if that is only her focus, we would be done by now. but she's looking at the potential criminality of a large number of people. including possibly rudy giuliani, possibly mark meadows, others who participated in the president's efforts. and so this suggests to me that when an indictment is brought, it is much broader than an indictment about a single phone call. >> on cipollone, we know he has cooperated with the january 6 committee and its investigation. but we also know that he's asserted executive pri

new trump player, testifying to a grand jury we already knew that former white house counsel pat cipollone testified to the grand jury investigating the donald trump documents case and we now have reports that parts of polonia has testified under oath in georgia to the fulton county jury that is investigating donald trump's possible criminal interference in the georgia presidential election. >> all i want to do is this, i just want to find, uh, 11,780 votes which is one more than what we have. >> donald trump's mascot, lindsey graham, lost his appeal in the 11th circuit court of appeals in which lindsey graham was attempting to avoid testifying to that very same grandeur in fulton county, georgia. the three judge panel in the certain court of appeals unanimously testified two of the three judges ordering lindsey graham to testify were appointed by donald trump with lindsey graham's vote for their confirmation. in the united states senate. leading off our discussion tonight is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and former chief of the criminal division in the eastern district of n

and former republican senator kelly loeffler and pat cipollone have both testified.ose things. sorry this is long, but yesterday we reported on that federal judge who said there's evidence, there's an email that shows trump knew the georgia data was a lie and he signed under oath a legal document attesting to it anyway. does this lead to trump himself now? >> absolutely. and i think two of the most significant ones are the cipollone testimony and then also the federal judge, both of them going at the lawyers. because we know from cassidy hutchinson that their plan of the false slate of electors is illegal. that's what they're criminally investigating. and then the judge is actually handing another piece, which is a lawyer actually saying trump should not be saying this or signing this document because he knows it's false. he's been made aware that it is false, and that's handing it off to the district attorney. >> trump adding another lawyer who represents other january 6th witnesses. who does that say that he's adding to his team? >> tii think it's about the subpoen

what door could be opened with the testimony of philbin and cipollone? >> now, look, if it's related to january 6th, my assumption is that it might be tied to the false elector scheme we've heard much about which is communications with the white house and individuals around the country as they were seeking to undermine the results of the 2020 election. that's a guess here. we just don't know. as sara's reporting noted, this is happening in secret, sealed proceedings because of the sensitivity of them, but, look, any number of matters would have come through the white house, and certainly you and i are both well aware of the number of investigations surrounding the former president. so at this point who knows? >> cipollone did speak to the january 6th committee, although it was in specific areas with parameters. presumably there wouldn't be the same parameters here. i want to make this understandable for our audience, like me, don't have law degrees. the issue here is what? if prosecutors can prove to the judge, if they can make the judge determine that p

cipollone, he seemed to relay, that you know, the president didn't want anything done.resident's most important political allies, family members and senior staff all begged him to tell his supporters to disperse and go home. they included sean hannity, laura ingraham and other allies of fox news, his son donald trump jr., the house minority leader kevin mccarthy, others in congress, and officials in the cabinet and executive branch, all of them made appeals to donald trump, which he rejected and he ignored. the select committee interviewed several people who were in the dining room with donald trump that afternoon, and every single one of these witnesses told us that he was watching the violent battles rage on television. he did not call his secretary of defense, or the national guard, the chief of the capitol police, or the chief of the national metropolitan police department. >> and to your knowledge, was the president in that private dining room the whole time that the attack on the capitol was going on? or did he ever go to the oval office or to the white house situ

when you're talking about a pat cipollone who we already know has provided publicly, you know, in the form of the january 6th committee testimony that we've heard, public information that says, i told him. you know, i told him that this was bad and wrong. i told him we shouldn't do this. that's it in a nutshell. when you're running an investigation and let me just say, you gave me a promotion, jose. i was an assistant u.s. attorney not u.s. attorney like chuck and on the civil side, but the point here about the grand jury and about all the evidence and testimony that grand jury has been gathering, the fact that there's 17 targets that we don't know all of the who there, but targets in this investigation, the fact that they're high-level witness with direct information, including information directly connects to donald trump who's directly connected to the action here at issue in georgia on interfering with the georgia election, that is significant. it tells me they're getting close to making whatever decision they're ultimately going to make. >> chuck, turning to the mar-a-lago invest

cipollone was reportedly familiar with discussions about the trump camp's efforts ss to h its voter fraud claims. in the end, hundreds of loffler's text messages have surfaced. and it is looking like senator lindsey graham will get a subpoena in the georgia election case. a federal appeals court has rejected his request to block a subpoena for his grand jury testimony. they want to ask graham about his phone calls with state officials, as trump and his allies were trying to overturn his loss in georgia. it's unclear if graham will take the case all the way to the supreme court. >>> this morning, the russian ambassador to the united states is alleging that a direct channel between the white house and the kremlin used to prevent nuclear conflict during the cuban missile crisis is no longer up and running, but state department official say that's not true. cnn's kylie atwood live at the state department with the latest here. what have you learned, kylie? >> so the ambassador gave an interview with "newsweek" yesterday. and he alleged that this back-channel that was used in the 1960s to avoid

traveling there florida's governor ron desantis rallied for zell din beyond state wide office, sean pat cipollone, responsible for keeping key democratic house seats locked in a tight contest himself. >> don't punish the people who are fixing your problems and don't reward the people who are trying to exploit the problems for their own political power. >> reporter: democrats also under pressure to maintain governors mansions in two traditionally blue states. oregon where president biden campaigned earlier this month and new mexico where he'll go this week. joined on the trail by his one-time running mate, former president obama. >> democracy mass a state in this election. >> reporter: working battleground states like michigan where democratic governors are trying to hold on. and with days to go, democrats eyeing ruby-red oklahoma as a possible pickup as that gubernatorial race becomes newly competitive with issues on abortion on the line in the home stretch. >> i'm going to spend the rest of the time making case this is not a. >>referee: rehn dum referendum this is a choice, a fundamental choice.

dong wants to hear from donald trump's white house lawyers, "the new york times," has forced pat cipolloneury testimony on the events leading up to the insurrection on january 6th. joining me now is former u.s. attorney and former senior fbi official chuck rosenberg, an msnbc contributor, so these lawyers chuck, will argue and have been arguing executive privilege. we heard them raise it, when the january 6th hearings happened, and they were being interviewed by the january 6th committee. how does d.o.j. believe it can get over that hurdle? >> sure, so mr. trump's lawyers don't want these two gentlemen to testify. i get that. because they likely have some information damaging to mr. trump and perhaps to others. how do justice department lawyers surmount that? in this way, katy. privileges whether executive privilege or attorney-client privilege are not in vialable, they are not invincible, and we know from the 1974 supreme court court case, u.s. v nix physician you have an ongoing federal criminal grand jury investigation, or some other compelling reason to sort of puncture the privilege,

and i take all of your point that what we're really getting at is access to cipollone and philbin and place, what is the importance of unlocking greg jacobs from any claims of executive privilege? >> well, it's twofold. for starters, they figure there are many schemes right in the january 6th committee and that the doj is considering. so the final -- the final desperate move basically to intimidate pence into playing ball and breaking the law, they're going to be very privy to, including as i said this kind of harrowing detail that's in maggie haberman's latest book, that they felt pence was in actual physical danger because of trump. relatedly, they will know about whether or not they were present, the conversation that trump and pence have on the morning of the 6th when he really tells pence this is not happening. and trump nevertheless revs up the crowd by making them think it's still open-ended so when they do find out, they are going really berserk. some of the other schemes, the doj one, the phony electors, pence's involvement as far as we know and therefore short and jacobs' wo

cipollone. he seemed to relay that, you know, the president didn't want anything done.begged him to tell his supporters to disperse and go home. they included sean hannity, laura ingraham, and other allies at fox news. his son, donald trump jr., the house minority leader, kevin mccarthy. others in congress and officials in the cabinet and executive branch, all of them made appeals to donald trump which he rejected and he ignored. the select committee interviewed several people who were in the dining room with trump that afternoon and every single one of these witnesses told us that he was watching the violent battles rage on television. he did not call his secretary of defense or the national guard, the chief of the capitol police or the chief of the metropolitan police department. >> and to your knowledge, was the president in that private dining room the whole time that the attack on the capitol was going on or did he ever go to the oval office, to the white house situation room? anywhere else? >> to the best of my recollection, he was always in the dinening room. >>

but what we know, the justice department is trying to get answers to the very thing that pat cipollone and his deputy are not willing to share which is direct conversations that they had with donald trump around january 6 leading up to that. and anything that they would have said giving him advice, that is the thing this that he had been declining to answer before the grand jury previously and we know now that there is a court proceeding where the justice department is trying to force them back into the grand jury to give them answers. when we step back, history is not really on donald trump's side here. neither is legal precedent. trump is trying to keep the firewall around the in-are most circles of his white house. and whatever happens in this case ultimately with these two men, that will have major implications for this criminal investigation before the grand jury and for many other witnesses that we know the justice department is already pursuing information from. >> appreciate the reporting. >>> still ahead, vladimir putin sending a new message to the west as russian soldier trai

of course president trump is on a white house counsel, pat cipollone also recognize that this plan was unlawful. here is his testimony. >> my view is that the vice president did not have the legal authority to do anything. >> there is no doubt that president trump pressure to campaign on vice president pence with significance. on the morning of january 6, president trump called the president from the oval office and demand it that he overturn the results of the election. numerous witnesses told us the select committee about the -- that president trump leveled at his on vice president. >> something along that the wording is wrong. >> the read that she relates the president called the vice president. do you remember what she said her father called him? >> the d word. >> if federal judge concluded, based on this and other evidence, president trump's pressure campaign against the vice president likely violated criminal statues. in the end, all of these people, department of justice officials, state elections officials, his own vice president, stood strong in the face of president trump imm

archives say the documents were not turned over as promised by the white house counsel pat cipo cipollone. the president instructed one of the attorneys to tell the archives all records were returned. according to multiple sources cannon refused the order and trump told him not to involve him self any further. >> this is a raving red flag. any time donald trump says something publicly or wants to argue something in court and the lawyers say, no can do. the reason is, yes, as we discussed, lawyers have very broad latitude in the kind of things you can argue. you have a duty to argue vigorously for your client, however, you cannot lie to a court under court ethics rule and you hour as heck cannot lie to investigators whether they're from the archives or the fbi because that is a federal crime. >> new outlook provides insight as to what donald trump was doing during the january 6th capitol riot. maggie havalon sat down with the former president in november. here's part of their conversation. >> what were you doing when -- how did you find out that there were people storming the capitol? >> i

. >> wolf, the justice department is asking a judge to compel this testimony from pat cipollone and his deputy. the former president has been trying to build something of a fire wall around his top advisors in the trump white house arguing that they are bound by executive privilege, by attorney client privilege in some cases to not be able to testify at the grand jury about pretty much anything that he was involved in and of course, those are the key questions not only of course for the january 6 th investigation on capitol hill but also for the justice department that wants to know what the former president was doing, what were those interactions before the efforts to overturn the election in 2020. so what is happening now behind closed doors at the u.s. district court is the justice department is seeking to compel that testimony. the former president is of course fighting that out and we'll see, wolf, when they show up in court where this goes, whether the judge has indeed been able to overcome those objections from the former president. >> how likely is it that the justice department

in washington, and it's really consequential because the two witnesses we're talking about, pat cipolloneuse counsel, his deputy patrick philbin, again, they were major witnesses and they were pushing back against these vote fraud claims by the former president, and they appeared before the criminal grand jury, the federal criminal grand jury here in washington, but they declined to answer certain questions because of the former president's claim of privilege, executive privilege and attorney/client privilege, and now the judge is asking them to compel them and ask them about their certain interactions with trump. how this goes, guys, it portends very, very, very largely for the criminal investigation by the justice department because if they can get some of this testimony from these two men, these two top lawyers in the white house, you can bet the prosecutors want to get questions to mark meadows and some of the other witnesses. >> that is for sure. evan perez, thank you. >>> more evidence, the consequences of climate change are already happening. the u.s. government just gave the emper

remember, pat cipollone went before the january six committee. he said he knew the election was lost. he said he took steps and told the president a variety of things. so what we are seeing now is the department of justice using that evidence to build their case. and while there will be a side battle on legal issues the former president is going to lose issue that he keeps losing them in other cases like with john eastman, where the judge found there was a crime fraud and evidence of crimes -- the legal issues are sideshow. i think the, real main event, is the efforts by the doj to go full steam ahead and prove the crimes that have appeared to be committed by the former president. >> the doj also said they will need more money to continue this. if republicans take control of congress two weeks from now, what happens to all of these investigations. >> the department will go forward. obviously, money is important. and legislature has the ability to control that to some extent. >> they're gonna roll block him -- they're not going to elect budgetary

>> anderson, the justice department shines to compel past cipollone and pat feldman to go before a grandng the events surrounding january 6th. and answer questions about their interactions with former president donald trump. these two men were both top lawyers in trump's white house counsel's office. they previously appeared before the grand jury but they refused to answer questions about advice and interaction with trump. and trump isn't trying to fight and block them from providing those answers. he cited attorney-client privilege, executive privilege, all of this is playing up behind the scenes in a sealed court fight. it gives an end occasion of just how much the justice department wants. particularly, about people and their actions with trump. and also, you know, how much trump wants to fight these folks from providing that information to prosecutors. >> sarah murray, thanks so much. i appreciate. it just ahead, it the economists, and a former clinton obama official who predicted -- inflation -- larry summers is talking about what he's hearing from both parties on how to fight it an

pat cipollone, white house lawyer told trump to return 24 boxes of stuff to nara.o mar-a-lago. pat philbin, pat cipollone's white house deputy counsel told the national archives in a september 2021 call that trump only had 12 boxes of news clips at mar-a-lago. we know that's not true. christina bobb signed a sworn affidavit in june regarding the documents. we know her assertions are likely not true. evan corcoran alleged all documents had been returned. they may turn out not to be true. and eric herschmann warned trump about having gold markets at mar-a-lago. to your point, it feels like in your instance the obstruction may very well made up of some of these fact patterns. >> absolutely. and the obstruction really -- the obstruction seems to be about donald trump's own actions. we've seen in the reporting that he packed some of the boxes himself, that he knew what was in them, and he was potentially making misrepresentations to his own lawyer. from the justice department's point of view, this is not an issue of whether or not his legal team was not being straight w

asking a federal judge to force two top lawyers, the key word here from the trump white house, pat cipollone patrick philbin to testify about conversations they had with the former president. that amid a secret court fight trump has been waging to block former advisers from testifying in front of the federal grand jury investigating january 6th. back with us now to discuss scott jennings, karen finney and ron brownstein. you know, as we're talking about the greater issue of democracy in peril, the president now is saying, of course, that democracy is on the ballot. we know abortion is on the ballot. crime is on the ballot, a number of issues. when you hear about this and think about the reporting that there is still an interest by doj in particular to try to get the testimony surrounding january 6th, is there still the electoral appetite do you think? >> look, i mean, inflation is 9%. the president's approval is at 40%. in that climate, it is going to be tough for the party in power. one of the reasons they are still in the game, democrats are still in the game, at least for controlling the

pat cipollone, pat philbin, christina and all of these folks in the sights of doj. some with potentially criminal conduct mostly as witnesses. it complicates. attorney-client privilege there and the exact thing it normally protects. communications between the lawyer and client, but here also you have an exception. a textbook case of this, because at least as reported, the client is saying to the lawyer, hey you know, i want you to help me do something that really is a crime, right? hiding these documents from the national archives. the lawyer says, no way. that's a case where admittedly after some litigation the court will say, crime fraud exception. those accusations can come out. >> a lot of it getting back to what trump knew, if trump knew it wasn't everything when he asked this lawyer to tell the archives it was everything. that could be a real problem. >> we already know there are three statutes being investigated. additional statutes doj did not name in the search warrant that deal specifically with classified documents. all of them require this as you said. a

nbc news confirming trump's former white house counsel, pat cipollone, has testified to grand jury in that case. and today, a federal appeals court says that south carolina senator, lindsey graham, must testify before that very same gradually. grandfather lawsuit to try and avoid a subpoena but two separate courts -- prosecutors are focusing on that phone call top election officials just days after the 2020 election. with that, let's get smarter. let's get to our lead up panel. nbc's new correspondent moderator of washington -- katie benner's hair, pulitzer prize-winning justice department reporter for the new york times. and we have --, department justice veteran and former acting solicitor general during the obama administration and has argued dozens of cases before the u.s. supreme court. katie, let's turn to you. the subpoena, the anticipation for it grows by the day. it is like the rose ceremony and the bachelor at this point. how close we begin dusting? >> i think so lofgren was telling the truth. of course. which he said they're very close. they need to be extremely careful wit

we expect that other witnesses, people like pat cipollone, patrick philbin, important witnesses thatormer president has tried to stop from testifying, providing testimony, we expect those people to be called back before the grand jury and to answer those questions from prosecutors. >> important point. and shan, in another blow to former president trump, a legal blow to former president trump, the u.s. supreme court today rejected his emergency request to intervene in the dispute over the highly classified documents seized from mar-a-lago. so where does this go from here? >> well, i think this pretty much ends trump's ability to go to the court on this. he may come up with other issues to try them again, but the court has made the very right decision not to validate this unprecedented interference with a criminal investigation by the judiciary. so i'm happy to see that the court has followed the legal analysis and some of the concerns we've had about partisanship, i they followed the law on this one. >> okay, guys, thank you very, very much. and be sure to tune in later tonight for an

that was pat cipollone from the white house and the former acting deputy attorney general donahue.nt stopped telling the specific lies about dominion? and why does he continue to tell these other lies about the election? >> when did you stop beating your wife? i don't mean -- >> they are lies. they're empirically lies. these are trump officials saying it. take their word for it, not mine. >> i understand. i can tell you this. despite what i've written in the media that some have suggested trump knew otherwise and so on, having spoken to former president trump and bannon the subject, i can tell you that they believe in their heart of hearts, they believe they've investigated and so on that there was election fraud. they believe that. so, it's not something that despite whatever in the media they think they're making up. i understand your point completely. but i am telling you i believe they sincerely believe in what they're saying. >> i can believe that all the gold in fort knox is mine. that doesn't mean i can go in there and get it. let me just ask you one final question, sir. jos