prior to that he worked for clemson, north carolina state. so these folks are really at the cutting edge. i want to talk -- start with fred. so, about four years ago, mark and i took a trip to the netherlands -- this is a tough job -- took a trip to the netherlandses and you took us to -- i had never heard of einto bein before, and we saw a turn-around story, a city that had built electronics at the heart of the city, had lost tens of thousands of jobs to asia, but within 15 years, this is a city that is basically voted one of the most innovative cities in the world. what happened? >> i shall give the short version. it's a long story. iontobin was built around two companies. phillips, and a subsidiary of the portland, based company. they came in big troubles in the mid-1990s. phillips announced they would ship their manufacturing to low-cost countries and it was 30,000 job losses. and in the same area, dock trucks then broke, so that was a horrible scenario for our city and not only for the city but for the netherlands as well. because philli