we've just finished a five-week course on it for the senior citizens lifetime learning at cnu. and she is collecting what she wants to boil down. i'm ready to write. [ laughter ] >> i usually am. >> in your studies around 1600, were you ever able to make an estimate of how many native peoples there were in virginia? >> estimate, yes. an estimate, i have a lot of faith in, no. nobody -- i mean nobody, including on the other side of the pond, was taking censuses of people at that point in time. it wasn't considered government's business. so all we have of the indians is john smith's warrior accounts, as they're called. he and chisago superiors wanted to know how about able-bodied males would be able to shoot at them if they came visiting. and that's not much to make an estimate from. but the best we can do without estimates is something under 10,000 people for the virginia coastal plain. that's a much smaller population. and when you couple that with using less drastic technology, and also using a lot more eco niches rather than really focusing in and destroying a few, you've got