and they're not very many black people in cookville, and he -- the police just sort of chased him around town, and then -- he didn't ever have to go to jail or anything, but it's just a constant. and i think that if any of you know anything about truth and reconciliation happening in this country, i'd like to know about it because i'd like to make contact with -- and each of you could comment on that matter. >> well, thank you for your comment. you're actually making me -- while you're talking, making me think of a couple of max maxims from the south african context. one about -- this question about whether white people know or not, i believe it from nelson mandela, which is -- it's hard to awake a people -- awaken a people pretending to be asleep, and so i think this -- the kind of wilful ignorance, the wilful not knowing, is a real problem to challenge. the other is from alex, who co-chairs the truth and reconciliation committee, and he said, we vastly underestimated the legacy of apartheid. and i think that's true in this country. we're commemorating this year the 50th anniversary of