knocked down by counsell. brewers aren't able to squeeze the ball very well today. count will probably get his fifth error of the year. that will help because sam men gets to the plate. >> rob: counsell is more of a middle infielder but is versatile enough to play third base. morse hits the shot -- boom. another hop inbetween. can't pick it up. >> bob: brewer defense ninth in the national league and made 73 errors with their two today and craig stammen could really help his team to give himself a big legal lead here. he can whale away. six hits and four rbis this year. we have seen him hit a couple of impressive line drives up the middle. i remember a double in florida off the head of the second baseman. he's a big guy. craig is 6'3," 220. he can hack. a little frisky on a pitch away. 0-2. 8-4 in new york, by the way. phillies and mets in the 4th inning. a little pop-up. prince fielder. foul ball. the inning is over. the nats get a run on the lead off with a hook to right field. watch how easy adam dunn swing

counsell.jj hardy demoted on august 12th. counsell goes to short. he was one of the corner stone players. om the same day they designated hall for assignment. that was a very interesting day in the recent history of the brewers who let their manager go in the middle of september last year. >> rob: 12 games to go last year. >> bob: and matt yos. it had been there for six years. what it amounts to their executive vice president is not afraid to pull the trigger. they are not playing well. they gave up a lot of offense to the pirates. now they're ten and a half hypothetical st. louis in the central. 9 behind colorado. they're 7th in the wild card. that may be way too many teams to leap-frog over the next six weeks. in fact two teams in the wild card race ahead of milwaukee are in their own division. >> rob: i talked to ash after that the assistant gm of milwaukee. he said that that was two weeks in the process. strikeout counsell. and they pulled the trigger after two weeks. they tried to let them

the proposal states that medicare would pay doctors for voluntary end of life counseling and that counseling would explain things like living wills, hospice care and such to patients. still, palin isn't convinced and posted these comments on her facebook page last night. it's misleading, she wrote, for the president to describe this section as an entirely voluntary provision that simply increases the information offered to medicare recipients. the issue is the context in which that information is provided and the coercive effect these consultations will have in that context. many taking issues with palin's comments, though. arlen specter calls rumors of death panels vicious and malicious. chief medical correspondent dr. sanjay gupta one of our cnn correspondents joined anderson cooper last night to talk about the issue. >> specifically looking at this idea of a medical professional and a senior sitting down and talking about all sorts of things. living wills, different provisions, they want certain measures taken near the time of death. all these sorts of things which, sometimes, you know, h

you shouldn't have counseling at the end of life. you ought to have counseling 20 years before you're going to die. you ought to plan these things out. and, you know, i don't have any problem with things like living wills but they ought to be done within the family. we should not have a -- we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grandma. >> sounds like his health care contributor corporations pulled the plug on senator grassley. what of senator isaacson? the very first news of his news release, u.s. senator johnny isaacson today denounced comments made by president obama regarding isaacson's alleged connection to language contained in the house health care bill on end of life counseling. where did mr. obama get the idea mr. isakson supported government coverage of end of life counseling? perhaps from isakson's interview the day before in which he said, quote, sarah palin's website had talked about the house bill having death panels on it where people would be euthanized, how someone co

she is referring to a provision that would allow medicare recipients to get counseling on things like hospice care or living wils. according to a republican senator, that's been taken off the bill. still, this death panel rumor has caught on and put her squarely back in the news. the question is, is sarah palin helping or hurting her political ambitions by grabbing the spotlight when the facts are not on her side? >> candy crowley, you spoke to i allot of folks about these so-called death panels. what are they saying? >> some had not heard directly about what sarah palin had said. there are particularly seniors that said to me, listen, here is how we look at it. in fact, this was in a column today that a leading columnist wrote. if you have a bill that says, listen, we will pay doctors to give end-of-life counseling every five years, except if they get sick, and then you can do it more often than that. you can understand how seniors might think, really? there is that fear out there. now, it's stoked by things like this. it is not true there is some panel that's going to go, let her di

part of this process is called end of life counseling and part of the end of life counseling can be an end of life order. adolph hitler ordered 6 million end of life orders. he called his program the final solution. i kind of wonder what we're going to call ours. >> americans for prosperity. whose speaker you just saw there. and freedom works being funded in part by the bradley foundation. the bradley foundation is currently represented by shirley and bannister. who else does shirleyy and bannister represent? well, there is the group citizens united which is currently pushing the obama has an enemies list story on its website. there is conservative activist richard viguerie whose website features the image of president obama as the joker from batman next to the title "why so socialist?" when shirley and bannister came after us today they not only only requested a correction for us getting the timing wrong, which i am happy to provide, they also immediately threatened to sue us and then provided the e-mail they sent us to right wing websites to write stories about their demanded correct

counseling as directed, domestic violence counseling which would be relationship counseling. >> reporter: a man with a past and television prominence, now caught in the focus of a real-life manhunt. miguel almaguer, nbc news, calgary. >>> when "nightly news" continues this saturday, while airline passengers are packed into increasingly crowded flight, why are all these planes just sitting out in the desert empty? >>> and later, island time, for the first family. we'll be right back. esterol. what was i thinking? but now i trust my heart to lipitor. when diet and exercise are not enough, adding lipitor may help. unlike some other cholesterol lowering medications, lipitor is fda approved to reduce the risk... of heart attack, stroke, and certain kinds of heart surgeries... if you have several common risk factors... or heart disease. lipitor has been extensively studied... with over 16 years of research. lipitor is not for everyone, including people with liver problems... and women who are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant. you need simple blood tests to check for liver problems. te

shouldn't have counseling at the end of life. you ought to have counseling 20 years before you are going to die. >> reporter: actually, senator grassley is one of the few repuicans working with the administration on health care. as for town hall the president has two more this week, one in colorado, one in montana. brian. >> savannah guthrie at the white house to start us off tonight. thanks. >>> a lot of the emotion we are seeing at the townhalls concerns what the administration has been calling the public option. opponents like to call it a government takeover of health care. the basic question remains -- what does the obama administration really mean by this term "public option." tonight we launch an effort aimed at making sense of it all. our report from nbc's kelly o'donnell. >> this is not health reform -- >> reporter: in the health care debate, two words evoke a strong reaction. public option. >> why will be forced into the public option -- >> reporter: heard again today at a townhall meeting in maryland. >> i would like y

despite rumors, counseling would be voluntary, not forced. but health care professionals would be paid to provide it. >> there is something legitimately worth talking about here. if you cover something under medicare you pay doctors to do it, they have a financial incentive to do it. >> reporter: as for what& advice patients would get from counselors, they'd hear about services like hospice, would be encouraging to give preferences for life sustaining treatment, that may include limiting the sbenlsity of medical intervention if the patient is pulseless. some wore senior was be steered into ending their life to save money. one house committee addressed those fears by adding this amendment. it says the government will not pay organizations that promote suicide, assisted suicide or the act of hastening death. if a harvard study is true, though, everyone's interest may dovetail. it said cancer patients with end of life counseling spend about $1,000 less in their final week of life, are more comfortable and lived as long as those who had more inte

a 52-week domestic violence counseling program. it has been represented to me that the program, sponsored by the commonwealth catholic charities, will -- satisfies the california requirement, and they indicate in the letter, dated june 10th, 2009. >> your honor, the people have preliminary reviewed the information given to us from the defense attorney on that issue. however, penal code section 1203-097, specifically requires the department of probation has to approve a batter's program. i'm not aware of any official approval at this point. i think it's my understanding that the commonwealth of virginia will satisfies california, but we don't have an official -- >> well, let's just make the following term and condition a term of probation. mr. brown has to complete a one-year domestic violence program which comports fully with the requirements set forth in california penal code. that means that if the probation department at some point in time, after reviewing this program, that has been recommended, determines that that program isn

and especially controversial provision is something called end of life counseling. the rumors and the questions have been putting lawmakers on the defensive. >> the democrats tell us all the time that it's the right of every american to have health care. yet it seems this obama plan will systematically deny those rights to certain groups like the elderly. >> we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grandma. >> what it says is as a 74-year-old man, if you develop cancer, we're pretty much going to write you off. >> well, you're just not right. nobody 74 is going to be written off because they have cancer. that's a vicious, malicious untrue rumor. pete: so have questions like this derailed the administration's plan to sell health care, janet? >> well, they haven't derailed it. but they've certainly taken it -- the debate in a direction that nobody had expected. and it puts the obama administration and the democrats in congress on the defensive on topics that they were not really expecting to come up. these town hall meet

you shouldn't have counseling at the end of life.have it 20 years before you're going to die. we should not have a government program that determines when to pull the plug on grandma. >> again, the government doesn't have a plan on when to pull the plug on grandma. number two, do you think we're focussing on that part of the debate, even as senator grassley said, you should be having these counseling sessions 20 years earlier. are we missing the point that living wills are something we all should consider no matter how old we are. >> those comments are pretty baffling to the white house. he's there taking talking points that pretty much incite debate. conservatives, republicans have talked in the past about end of life counseling, having end of life wills -- >> even sarah palin, as governor in april 2008, encouraged alaskans to seek out counseling services for these important decisions. >> but i think what's happened is there's been an inflation of two ideas. these two ideas have somehow gotten merged together so that we're talking a

>> yes, sex addiction and he had to get counseling for both of those, and then another ex-girlfriend in another report i saw said that he was really into sex and that is one of the reasons they broke up. but in any event -- >> wait, wait, wait. jon baird, you can say that about any man you happen to snatch off of the street, they are into sex, but what about counselling for it? isn't that beyond the norm? >> i would think it is beyond the norm, but basically, that was in the report that was in the condition that he get this counseling. so obviously, there was some sort of issue with that. >> yeah, yeah, i have a feeling we are putting perfume on the pig here, because when you have to go get counseling for a sex addiction after you have beaten up two girlfriends, and what can you tell me about him punching jasmine fiori before? punching her in public to where she falls fully dressed, pocketbook, cell phone, everything into a swimming pool. >> that is right. he was charged with that in las vegas a couple of months ago. remember, they just met back in march, and got married a couple of

yet, the health care reform package that includes end-of-life counseling, paid for by the government, strikes some as inhumane and has proven politically toxic. the senate version of health care reform has cut it out. the house version stills that in. is too much money being spent on end-of-life care? >> unfortunately, yes. >> reporter: dr. carmine gianatiempo treats terminally ill patients every day. he says by time they get to the intensive care unit, it's too late for counseling. >> most of the time, the first time that the subject is actually brought up is when the patient is almost at the end of their life. >> reporter: some believe that when it comes to the terminally ill, more doctors need to stop prescribing and start communicating. >> we are not honoring patients and their families' own wishes. it turns out that if we did a better job of actually informing patients about what their choices are and then honoring their wishes, we would save money. >> reporter: and help more people like molvin and their families deal with dea on their terms. kelly cobiella, cbs news, patterson,

they are end of life counseling. people want doctors to be counseling people. larry, i'm not saying your granny has got to go. this is the kind of sideline that is making this -- i'm right in the middle of a sentence. >> the source of these sources is troubling, but i don't have the time to google it up right here on the set. but i'll say this. once that legislative language gets in there, this end of life counseling, once that legislative language gets in there, it opens the door to regulatory interpretations. and you've got rahm emanuel's brother in the white house, and others, who basically feel it is cost ineffective to keep those grannies alive after a long time. and this, plus the turnaround for the elderly. 20 percentage points now, the elderly are opposed to this thing. they're not nuts, mark. the grannies aren't nuts. and the threat from this language is not nuts. that's the part i don't get. >> what i don't get ooiter is how people can be so concerned about legislative language still in discussion. and by the way, no one has ever answered the fact tha

, a bill that call it is an advanced counseling provision. critics calling it a death panel. you've heard senator grassley appearing to endorse that view and candy crowley said that he was back pedaling a little bit. what does it actually spell out? >> i'm probably going to get e-mails about this. i'm going to say that death panel is probably a hyperbole. it's so far out of left field, i'm not quite sure how to context you'llize it. they are specifically looking at this idea of a medical professional and a senior sitting down and talking about all sorts of things. living wills, different provisions. they want certain measures taken near the time of death. all of these sorts of things, which sometimes happen during routine office visits but sometimes don't. sometimes they are misunderstood and sometimes they are not acted upon. so i think that's what they are talking about here. having said that, anderson, we've been doing a lot of research in this particular issue. one thing that comes out, this came out of an article in the medical associati

they want end-of-life counseling. how you can morph end-of-life counseling -- so all the house did was essentially repeat the same thing that senator grassley voted for in 2003 in their bill. now, how you can morph that into pulling the plug on grandma i don't know. i think it's despicable, i think it's all of the lies that have come out on this bill that are just designed to frighten the daylights out of people but i think the american people is much smarter than politicians in washington give them credit for and they're going to figure this out and they know they really do want health care reform. >> schieffer: governor dean, thank you so much for being with us this morning. i'll be back with some final thoughts in just a second. soon there will be 1 trillion connected devices... in the world. can you hear them? food is talking to store shelves. cargo containers are talking to supply chains. power lines are talking to the grid. now that's smart. systems that allow carrots to tell truck drivers how fresh they are. ro

you shouldn't have counseling at the end of life. you ought to have counseling 20 years before you're going to die. we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grandma. >> niki tsongas, do the american people have every right to fear that the government might pull the plug on grandma? >> well, i'm actually surprised at senator grassley because this notion and this version of what's in the house bill has been absolutely debunked. it's true there is a provision in there that says that if physicians have a conversation with their patient, that they have a right around these issues, all of which are very, very important, that they have a right to be reimbursed for their time spent at this. it doesn't require that conversation. it can be initiated by a patient as they learn of great challenges of their own health care, but this interpretation that senator grassley has given it is one that, as i said, has been absolutely debunked, and i think in order for us to have the kind of discussion we rea

looking where the counseling is. where the swords are crossed. they're n getting all of the information about this. my time as the president and my time at the town hall meeting leads me to believe people who hear me wondering about it. hearing me speak about what it doesn't entail, they're impressed by how -- by his vision and how we go forward with respect to health care reform. it was a very good town hall meeting. he took questions from peopl who i would say disagreed with him coming in to it. maybe he disagreed with them as they all left. but i would also say for those folks who are sort of on the bubble that we have to respect that we need to do this and he has a vision for doing it. >> governor ritter, what do you hear most? rocky mountain west, a key vote for the country. the president won their vote in the election last year. it's a real concern with the role of government, the mounting debt that could be associated with the health care plan? what are you hearing? >> that's the right point of it. i think what i hear is the health care sy

[applause] >> i am opposed to mandatory counseling. you and i and others can get counseling if we want it, and we can think through our own issues, and we have families to discuss matters with, and nobody ought to order anybody that is competent to get mandatory counseling. it is a personal decision. no. 26, police. -- please. on the way to 30. >> now, that's ok. thank you for coming summer. as a disabled vet, i will speak a little bit for the vets. i want to shake your hand. you have done things something for us in europe done some things against us but i respect you for being who you are. most of my questions have been answered so i will go off in a different tangent. this is only the beginning of what is happening to america. [applause] and people better wake up. we have a bunch of bureaucrats who are robbing us blind. they have been stealing from us for years, and there is nobody with the contests -- cohonejoneo stand up to them. go back and say you're going to represent us. it doesn't matter what party you are. the bottom line is,

the bet bather is counsell. almost like gold's gym out there.it's up and away to counsell. 0 for 2 today. 0 for 7 in the series. braun just made a good defensive play. he has a base hit and steal in two trips. the nats would love to see him leading off the top of the 6th. the series finale is tomorrow. balester and gallardo, who is 11-10 with a 3.5 e.r.a. slapped by the mound but belliard scoops and fires. well played by ronnie belliard against a very speedy runner. you can give up solos when you're up big. and the nats are up big, halfway through the game. it's 8-# washington. 8-2 washington. @@úúxx  >> i'm having fun. it's a sunday. it's beautiful out here. i'm excited. my parents are in town so try to put on a show for them. >> debbi: so far he is putting on a show. he has been a key part of this game, a double and scored on the suicide sweep. i'm joined by mike's parents, his mom arlene and his father figure throughout his life. i have to ask you. being a baseball mom and a single mom at the time, how was it raising mike and

what's your difficulty with the end-of-life counseling? in your article, you say the message is clear. hurry up and die. >> well, the message that they want to communicate i think is if you have a stroke or if you have a situation that somehow your life has lost a little value and it may not be worth living anymore. my problem with the document, chris, is that the author is a proponent of assisted suicide. he's way out there on that issue, and the v.a. has been using this, a new directive came out in july urging providers to refer patients to it. so in my view, there should be a balanced treatment. this is a slippery slope that makes people, when you look at the document, it makes people feel like they're a burden and they should do the decent thing and die. >> we'll get to the specifics, but i want to ask you a general question. president obama calls talk of a government-run death panel a, quote, extraordinary lie, but i want to put up what you said in your "wall street journal" article this week. you said the following: when the governme

you shouldn't have counseling at the end of life. you ought to have counseling 20 years before you die. we should not have a government program that determines if you're going to pull the plug on grandma. >> pull the plug on grandma. that's not part of the debate. >> it's hyperbolic, fear mongering, politics at its worst. it generates anger and fear and anxiety people have today. it's amazing to me that a very good idea, one i'm sure maybe even all of us agree with, that there ought to be some consultation, some opportunity to talk about these things outside of that moment when you're at your most emotionally vulnerable state in life. the amazing thing is that johnny isaacson, a member of the health committee offered it as a mandatory requirement, there be this mandatory counseling. it turns out they persuaded him to offer it as a voluntary measure. that voluntary counseling is something we ought to be encouraging not discouraging. >> senator coburn, the drug bill passed in 2003 had a similar provision, did it not? >> i don't know. i

that was cho's last contact with the counseling center. the counselor later wrote she gave him emergency contact numbers and encouraged him to return the next seemeser in january. cho didn't make an appointment. cho's file first turned up july 16th when the former cook counseling center director find it in his home while prepare for a civil suit filed against him, the university and others by two of the victims' families. in a court file the director said the file was in a manila envelope, along with several others. and he packed it up his personal documents in late february or early march of 2006. it was cho's family that gave permission for the files to be released. his sister said in a letter authorizing the release of the files that the family agreed it was the correct thing to do. very tough for the families of the, you know, tech victims and for the university. it brings everything up again. >> disturbing. all right. jane watrel, thank you. >>> "news4 at 5:00" is just getting started tonight. trees topple in new york central park. mo

one thing we encourage people to do is to contact the local counseling agency. my agency, for example, will take those kinds of inquiries and we will work with the client and working with probably the federal trade commission or the local attorneys office to see if there is a case that can be made for that client and try to recoupe those funds. >> a lot of people are using credit cards to try to get out of mortgage debt and putting it on their cards and making things even worse. how can $10 help in this time of desperate need. >> the thing is you have to smart somewhere and in a time where we see people depleting their retire and savings and going to every source they can in order to get through, it is important to start to rebuild as you can. and that might mean $10 a week or $10 a monday or whatever you can spare but have a longer- term vision in mind that you have to have an emergency savings. we see so many people a disaster strike, a hurricane comes through, a job loss, may not be able to have three or six months but if you have a little set aside to weathe

e doyle of the tenth circuit court of appeals, he served as attorney vizner the office of general counsel of the epa. professor mcgarity has written extensively about administrative law and published "the preemption war: when federal bureaucracies trump local juries." professor mcgarity, @@@@@'6#+g"r

that was in the condition that he get this counseling. so obviously there was some sort of issue with that. >> i've got a feeling, we're going to put him on the thing here. because when tough get counseling for sex addiction, after you've beaten up two girlfriends, and what can you tell me about him into a swimming pool. number one fan contest, diane, she never miss as show. she even planned her we hadding. so after the ceremony she could watch. then go back for the cocktail hour and reception. she's a paralegal, a proud mother. congratulations, diane. new york times best seller, 11th victim and i want to personally thank you, friend. >>> jasmine fiore with her husband ryan jenkins last seen in san diego and the building manager found her dead, stuffed maked in a suits case in the dumpster. >> we now have an arrest warrant for the murder of jasmine. >> as you just heard from california investigators, murder charges have been filed in the case of jasmine fiore. they offer gruesome new details as well, about the state of her body found earl

it is not -- but it is not a death panel. >> counsel. >> it is counseling. not you, but how do certain leaders go from that to saying death panels will be impanelled and granny will have the plug pulled? >> what happens with this, i believe -- this is just my opinion. when you have that type mandate -- it is a shall. you have to do it. that has to happen and that instruction has to happen. and while living wills are something that we should have, my husband and i have a living will, but it should not be a mandate of the federal government on individuals who have prepaid their access to medicare. this money has been coming out of thai paychecks. >> right. but going back to the question i have to ask you -- >> the counsel. >> i have to ask you again, though, does that equal a death panel? i don't think it comes close. i think it is counseling. a death panel would be somebody saying joe, we are just not going to give you the operation you need, good-bye. because you drink too many lattes with whip cream on it, you deserve to die. that's a death panel. but -- ha

his probation requires that brown complete domestic violence counseling. he can't have contact with rihanna until that is completed. >>> quarterback michael vick will make his preseason debut thursday night. that's when the philadelphia eagles take on the jacksonville jaguars. not known exactly how much time he'll actually play. he was released from federal custody last month after serving 18 months for running a dogfi t dogfighting ring. he's allowed to play in the next two preseason games, but not in any regular season games yet. the nfl commissioner will decide by late october if vick will play during the regular season. if. >>> the town center of tulia,

we're at a stage with both parties have agreed to undergo counseling. we have these opportunities whenever you have a new administration. clearly there's an additional timely pattern. i think there's a receptiveness in mexico to the fact that u.s. said the drug car is a shared responsibility. what we need to do now is a commitment that matches us that responsibility. >> so far what we're seeing in terms of actual collaboration falls short. >> reporter: denise dresser, how do you see the general state? >> i think that the climate for cooperation has improved since president obama came in to office. and hillary clinton's trip to mexico in recent months where she stopped the rhetoric of co-responsibility has helped a great deal in that regard. i think we have to transition from the rhetoric of collaboration to the reality of it. and that would entail the u.s. assuming greater responsibility for arming the drug wars. i think one of mexico's greatest concerns is lack of progress on stopping the influx of weapons that cross from the united states in to mexico

check out our liberty counsel website, lc .org.will keep you up-to-date with regards to the issues in this case. this is a closely watched case. we will ever -- were her sleep defended personal and athletic trekker but it's lc.org for more information see can be careful when you pray, big brother is watching. unbelievable story. ongoing low. coming up at the age of 17, he sailed around the world all by himself. what was his mother thinking letting them do this? she is here too. we'll talk to them when they return. i'm jennifer lopez, and here's a sound no mother wants to hear. [ baby coughing ] it's pertussis -- whooping cough. and if you think it's hard to listo for0 seconds, imag@nú aring it again and again for an hour. then two. imagine it continues over the course of the day, and, with little rest, into the night... for weeks, even months. now imagine this sound is coming from your baby. pertussis is most often spread by parents. and it's potentially fatal to infants. even when babies themselves are vaccinated, they're not prot

reimbursing doctors for the counseling gives them financial incentive to counsel patients to kill themselves. point of fact. end of life directives save money, unquote. newt gingrich said that. point of logic, if your patients kill themselves, you stop making money off them. as promised, "washington post" associate editor, eugene robinson joins us now. good evening. so sarah palin quotes your column. the quote she used citizens are not dilution alto conclude the goal is to conclude end of life spending. if you read the sentence that she left out. >> yes. the sentence in the same column, immediately following, is, quote, it is irresponsible for politicians such as sarah palin to claim outlandishly and falsely that there's going to be some kind of death panel to decide when to pull the plug on aunt sylvia. yes, sarah palin somehow is -- bolstering her argument on death panels by quoting a column of mine that calls her out by name specifically as outlandish, false, and irresponsible for making up this whole death panel canard. >> intellectual dishonesty. moving on, the point of what she wrote s

explosion comesle less than week before afghanistan holds elections for president and provincial counsels and as you well know, coalition troops have been moving into afghanistan in the past several weeks in helmand province. again, a huge blast echoed through the afghan capital. smoke seen coming in the direction of the u.s. embassy. we are working the story to give out more details to you as soon as we get them. we'll, of course, bring them to you. >>> for now, we'll turn back to our regular newscast. it was the seminal event of the '60s for many people and 40 years later woodstock is as big as ever. the three-day music festival began august -- >> has distinguished herself behind bars. she has tried so desperately to

[laughter] >> and the other is about to earn her doctorate in counseling psychology. why they did not choose to go into medicine, i think, well, we touched on some of those issues today. but what i want to tell betsy and emily is that your father has written down and you know where it is what he wants when it is his time. and i encourage you to, at some point in your lives, have this conversation among your own family and write it down. >> and on that note, we will bring this to a close. i want to once again say that health affairs really is so grateful to the organizations that made his forum possible today. the robert johnson foundation, the association of american medical colleges, the american board of internal medicine, and the american hospitals association. we pledged to bring you a serious discussion that was at the level that the topic demands, a serious health reform as we said demands a serious discussion. i hope in the process we have also brought you one that you have found provocative, stimulating, informative, and as we heard from the last panel, even e

you shouldn't have counseling at the ends of life. ought to have counseling 20 years before you're going to die. you ought to plan these things out. you know, i didn't have any problem like livings will but they ought to be done within the family. we should not have a government program that determines if you're going to pull the plug on grandma. >> we heard the president say yesterday that you're not pulling the plug on grandma. what do you say to senator grassley telling this crowd of 300 people they should be concerned that "you're going to pull the plug on grandma"? >> there's a lot of things the president said yesterday we know are not true. he said aarp supported his plan. they said no, mr. president. we don't. >> let's get to the issue of this concern, a lot of old people are afraid that the government will use death panels here. >> they're afraid and here's why. the democrats aren't clear what they're selling to the american people. there is no bill that the democrats could coalesce behind to show the american people what the