curt girdle proved in 1951 that any logical scheme, including a computer, anything, is necessarily dependent upon axioms outside the box. what's inside the box is the machine, but any machine is necessarily dependent on what alan turin called an oracle. a source of creativity, surprise, outside the box. mark: can machines have judgment? >> no, not really. they can repeat or imitate processes of judgment supplied to them by human beings, but every symbol that's employed in the machine has to be defined by a human interpreter, and so, so the whole idea that these machines shuffling symbols actually have meaning without human providers is itself delusional, and i think it's really ironic that all these brilliant computer scientists of silicon valley have lost traffic the very essence of their science. the essence of their science was begun by turin and gertel and artificial intelligence refuted these original insights which necessarily make computers dependent on human inputs. mark: so if we understand technology, macrotechnology, we have really nothing to fear, do we? >> no, this is just conti