knight and we've met cynthia jones and particularly cynthia who came into the class, so i think most people enjoyed her, but from the sociological definition, she is a cult leader. now when we met cynthia jones to go back and expand out your good comment here, when we met her, gosh in 1989, she was a person without institutional form who was working through deeply held spiritual ideas. but as i mentioned back then in those classes i tracked along and slowly but surely the trappings of institutional development came around through the social dimension, conquertize so to speak. until now we're really seeing with this diana's grove group she is running that we have elements we could pin point as being institutional. so, good point we don't want to throw out the institution because we're in the social dimension here. but how those social dimensions work in the dynamics; another key theme i'd like bring out here is we are so used to thinking about, church as this beautiful huge cathedral say in europe, it seems like they've been here forever. and people from inside a religious organizatio