but that's the way it worked with d'souza because d'souza went to the technical university in berlin.one of the courses they had to go out in the street and work with workers who are building things. and so that push away their thought into practical paths, whereas when alan turing was a cambridge nobody ever said boo about let's see how you would make that thing. so even though he might have been leaning toward making things, i mean, relatives on his mother's side were engineers who were makers of things, he was encouraged to do that. in fact, when he would make something at the school that he went to as a young boy in england, it all would get thrown away. he would leave it on the windowsill and it would get tossed because nobody wanted that around the room. so that was another thing that fascinated me was the way to land grant system focused on one thing, and the way that other types of universities by cambridge and princeton focused on another thing. >> host: certainly another history, window in history. value is assigned in some instances and not others. jane, were you particular