daniel ellsberg had some interactions with -- darpa was funding rand to do social science work in vietnam. the second thing was that nixon wanted to basically retaliate against the defense department so started cutting billets. didn't trust the office of the secretary of defense. so what the bureaucracy do when under attack? they protect themselves. the myth with darpa was the d was added and became darpa -- what the pentagon did to protect bullets being cut was they made all of these agencies independent agencies that weren't -- the numbers wouldn't be counted. so you had the advance research projects agency, the defense advance research protect agency that defended it from cuts. that's why the d was add he, not any redirection of the agency that was about it. i think darpa was under nixon's radar, signs and technology did not occupy a lot of his time, at least not at that granular level. >> well, i'm going to shift gears a little bit. many who live through the eisenhower years tended to see him as a -- yes, great general, an amiable grandfatherly figure, kind of distant and removed, per