so if, when richard nixon told the washington post and the new york times not to publish daniel ellsberghat attitude and said it's not for us to query the president of the united states, then we would never have known about the pentagon papers, we'd probably never have known about philby and burgess and the british spies because that's what governments always say. they always say listen to us, we are the wise ones and you are jeopardising. so you have to begin by saying that the press has to be independent and has to make its ownjudgement. now, of course you can argue that we were irresponsible and we shouldn't have published, but my problem with blackhurst and that quote was him saying that in any circumstances, if the british state told me not to publish, i would not do it. so over a 20—year span where you, as editor, are dealing with important national security issues frequently, and yourjournalists were bringing to you exposes and revelations and secrets uncovered, can you name to me one example where you ultimately took the decision not to publish information that your journalists h

publishing from america because the pentagon papers case of 1972 when the edward snowden of his day, daniel ellsberghe truth about the vietnam war and the american government tried to stop him in the supreme court said no. that is not the role of government. the press must be independent from government. who did you consult? the big damned element of what i said, the mantra publish and be damned, the mantra publish and be damned, the damned element is severe. you we re the damned element is severe. you were castigated and accused of treacherous behaviour by government figures including the head of intelligence and by fellow journalist. who did you consult before deciding to publish? multiple people. we were in touch with the white house, with the nsa, with the british intelligence agencies. with the fabled d notice system in britain, the system in which people volu nta ry britain, the system in which people voluntary submit material to the government. there was almost daily contact. so when, as we now know, after publication the head of mi6 said that britain's adversaries at the time of publication

go back, again, this is part of the history, daniel ellsberg people who saw a higher responsibility toothers me about this moment right now is everybody in washington does know this. all the republicans know this. they know donald trump is not competent. not capable of performing the responsibilities of president. and it has enormous consequences. richard knows what leaders in other countries are sitting around talking to each other about now. if you're a putin or a xi you're engaged in one belt one road project with a trillion dollars being spent in 68 countries. you look at the united states boy this is our opportunity, let's drive it to the hilt. we have an opportunity lost cause in what's happening now. nobody is reckoning that in washington. members of the united states senate, this is what the senate was defined for this moment. and it is a moment that calls on them to do things that are necessary to stop gap what donald trump is either not doing or not capable ever doing, and there are a whole bunch of things, i think. but the biggest single opportunity we have right now, i thin