danielle allen, i'll start with you.watched a president who has shattered many norms shatter yet another one. i know you've studied and watched debates through history, the language of debates. what did you see the other night? >> thank you so much for having me, jeff. i saw somebody who has no interest in rules, that simple. rules were agreed on in advance, allocated speaking times, and the president was absolutely insisted on just using physical force to power through the structure of the rules meant to make the debated productive. >> reporter: pete peterson, what was your take? >> i think it's fair to say the president treated the debate as if it were a press conference. he noted often he didn't really prepared for this debate as he felt like he did usually in press conferences which are obviously very combat nigh the way he hosts them and he stepped into a debate that was really meant to be an exchange of ideas and attempted to dominate. >> reporter: i want to broaden it to the rules of our society to put that debate

i am joined by danielle allen, widely-published author on democracy from ancient greece to today, and the safra center for ethics at harvard university. and pete peterson, who writes and speaks on public engagement, and is dean of the pepperdine university school of public policy. welcome to both of you. danielle, we have watched the president shatter yet another one. you have studied and watched debates through history. the language of debates. what did you see the other night? danielle: thanks so much for having me. i saw someone who has no interest in rules. the president was -- absolutely insisted on using force to power through the rules and make the debate unproductive. jeffrey: pete, what was your take? pete: he did not really prepare for this debate as he felt like he did usually a press conferences, which obviously were very combative in the way that he them. he stepped into a debate that was meant to be an exchange of ideas and attempted to dominate. jeffrey: i want to broaden and out to the rules of our society, to put it into context. i want to read a quote to you from one

our walter isaacson speaks to harvard professor danielle allen about breaking the vicious partisan cycled -- >> despite all that's happened and despite all that's still happening it's still a possibility.

my colleague daniel allen at harvard with the democratic knowledge project. i heard from people doing civics education all of theeo time. i write in" these, i've written the book is much as american histories and old-fashioned civics textbook. i do think, i wholly support the idea that we need more and better civic education. i'm always curious to think what people think is the reason we don't have it. i'm curious to ask ken. often this narrative like we used to have it used to be so great. people say did we have it wasn't so great? we urgently need it. but what it is, i think in our current political environment, sadly a source of confrontation. what we say when we need that? the president calls in a speech earlier this year that was just designed to capture the media cycle for 15 minutes. there have been many such suggestions over time. they usually associate with the single political party. in civics education is not partisan. it cannot be partisan. but americans don't know the meaning of the word nonpartisan anymore. what is that mean today? i would say i

eugene allen died in 2010 but his life story became the basis of lee daniels' film "the butler." >> weave no tolerce of politicst the whe house. >> i'm the new butler. you hr nothing. you e e nothg. henlnly seed.. you know he got that job himself. thwhwhite use e caed him. >> they swore him to some kind of secret code. and so proud of you. >> what do your dadaddy do? >> is a butler. >> everything you are and everything you have. the trailer of "the butler" based on the life story of eugene allen. that was oprah winfrey and forest whitataker playing eugene allenn and his wife. their son charlrles allen joinss now. we welcome you to democracy y n! it i is great toto have you wit, charles.s. >> thank y y for having me. amy: so as he watched president mean,on the balcony -- i so much was going on on social media as people started to talk about him as benito trumponlini. there, , does a military salute, gives a thumbs-up, then dramatically takes off his mask, turns around, and walks into the white house. talk about who works under the white house, charles allen. >> well, i was l listening t