between 1975 and 1982, the los angeles police department, led by lapd darryl gates, chief darryl gates, killed 16 people using the choke hold. 12 of whom were black. and so here we are, talking about the choke hold. a different iteration of it with the knee. and so, no, we've not made a lot of progress. and now with the young people on the street, i think change is it in the air. >> let me ask you this because the choke hold is banned by a number of police departments. it's banned by the nypd but it still is what led to eric garner's death a few years ago. what do you think about -- do we need -- or does this country need to criminalize the use of a choke hold in order for police departments, those bans, to be effective? those bans to have teeth behind them. >> well, absolutely. we have banned it, here, in los angeles, and as you said, in a number of cities, et cetera. but, when they use it, they don't get any real criminal penalties for doing it. so, yes, the police officers must know that if they use a choke hold or any iteration of that, that they can be criminally charged for that.