. >> and joining me from new york is david epstein, he's the author most recent-of "the sports gene inside the science of extraordinary athletic performance." you know, what strikes me, david, when i hear about these things, you know, we seem to baby, if you will, pitchers more than ever in the big leagues and yet these arm injuries are at an all-time high. so, how do you reconcile those two things? >> that's right. there's no question that major league pitchers are pitching less than they ever have before. pitch counts are kind of at historic lows. but these injuries are set in motion in the developing elbow, right? so, this is something where the groundwork is set by microtears in the ligament when that elbow is developing, you know, during puberty when the arm's growing and so what we're seeing at the major league level is something that can't be prevented at the major heeg level. it has to be prevented in the developing pitcher. >> you're saying all this happens before they even get to the big leagues. they show up -- as good as they may be they show up with the microtears or microinju