. >> joining us live in washington, former bush speechwriter, david frump and in cincinnati, fellow former ceo ohio of state. good evening, gentlemen. david frump, if i can start to you, before i get to the herman cain issue, he couldn't name three agencies of the federal government that he wanted to eliminate even though he vowed to eliminate precisely that number. some are calling this potentially a fatal blunder to his campaign. what's your opinion? >> it was agonizing to watch. anything who has spoken in public has been through it before but never in so many eyes. it was painful because it ex acted pain. rick perry has been in trouble for a long tichlt. there is question whether he's up to the job of moving from the state level to the national level. i think his detractors saw that. i think his contributors are going to be discouraged. >> david, what's your reaction to this blunder? >> i think it was a stumble. i don't think it was fatal. >> stumble, but not fatal, considering his performances in these past debates, he needed the performance, right? >> i think he, in this debate in tot