what we've seen cjustice secretary conservative justice secretary david gauke. come to state of the nation. great to see you again. good evening. is being tough on crime wrong? >> i think it's right that we are really focused on reducing crime. the challenge is that a policy of increasing sentences isn't necessarily the right way to reduce crime for, for a couple of reasons. one, there are some cases, particularly if we're looking at short sentences where a short time in prison will result in a higher reoffending rate than being released and having a community sentence. the second point is it's indirect, if you like. what we've seen over the last 30 years is a huge increase in the prison population. it's essentially doubled over that time period. and that is not cheap. the average cost for a prison place is £51,000 a year. the government has committed to spend £10 billion on building more prisons. and the spend £10 billion on building mo i prisons. and the spend £10 billion on building mo i accepts. and the spend £10 billion on building mo i accept that d the spe