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back with us again is david hickton.e ask you about, i guess, a narrower question about how to pursue these things. organization one in the gru indictment from friday, everybody believes that's wikileaks. we don't know how big an organization it is anymore. they seem to very clearly have known that they were -- at least the indictment implying they knew they were dealing with russian military intelligence. why aren't they charged? would you expect a group that's identified that way in an indictment to be charged? do you expect more indictments related to that hacking? >> i can't answer the question why wikileaks hasn't been charged because i don't have enough information. that would be in the province in fact special counsel. i think an important point to make is, unlike china which was seeking economic advantage through our patents and our discovery for purposes of commercial purposes, russia seeks to destabilize us by attacking our infrastructure, our air traffic control system, our energy grid. these are the things th

david hickton is the founding director of the institute for cyberlaw, policy, and security at the universityttsburgh. he also served as u.s. attorney during the obama administration. i want to start with you, andrew. you guys right, the attempt against make haskill's office was a variant of the password stealing technique used by russia's so-called fancy hackers against john podesta in 2016. tell us what they did. >> that's right, katy. what they did was they tried to replicate what they did to john po te podesta in 2016. he was hillary's campaign chairman. they targeted senator make haskill's office such that it sent links that look like an authentic email from microsoft saying you needed to change your password and then it brought them to a page that looked ex t exactly like the microsoft portal where you change your password. if the individual followed that prompt and typed in their password, that gave those russian hackers basically a way to infiltrate that computer system. there was no evidence to believe that the hack was successful and senator make haskill's office later confirmed tha

the enemy, surviving in a social media world of hackers, terrorists, russians and fake news" and david hickton who led the fbi cyber unit named in the indictment during the obama administration. david, how did the mueller investigators piece it together? how did they get -- how did they find out with as much confidence as they have that this was done by russian intelligence officers known as the gru? >> when you talk about cyber enforcement it can be very complicated or reduced down to this. it is about attribution and defeat i defeati defeating anonymous. it's about pinning the tail on the cyber donkey. i was proud to lead a group i thought were the best cyber investigators here. three squads at the fbi who are identified in the press release as part of today's announcement. the hackers tried to avoid detection. in china, they are part of a group but they avoid detection by having an architecture of compromised computers which turned their signatures anonymous. in russia they subcontract hackers. i think a very interesting question for the president to ask vladimir putin if the meeting goes f