>> okay, so he had a science minister, david willets, but a number of us-- including myself, actually-- had a lot of discussion at different levels of government, including with david cameron, and persuaded him that science and knowledge is the basis of innovation, and innovation is the basis of economic growth. >> rose: economic growth. >> and if you switch off the knowledge machine, you will switch off ultimate growth. and they bought into that as they should have done. >> rose: that's part of what the president emphasizeed in his state of the union speech. >> he did. >> rose: what's the difference in cameron and obama? >> well, i think-- i think we-- i think the problem here is you have to have a long-term view. so the obama stimulation money, though very welcomed, was for a two-year period, and it's not like building roads and keeping people in employment. science is actually best seen as a long-term investment, and really -- >> but the key here is investment rather than expenditure. >> correct. >> rose: it is an investment in innovation, it's an investment in growth, it's an inve