i would emphasize the need to hire more dcaa people, more auditors. it's as simple as that. >> we're not talking about thousands of people. dcaa is scrambling to get 100 auditors added in 2013 to attack this a backlog of work. maybe this committee could look at funding that on a fee basis so they are able to scale up and perform the work they are being asked to do. >> let me add -- commissioner thibault worked very hard on the specifics of the personnel and the scale of the on audited contracts -- the unaudited contracts. dcaa is short on personnel and they have a choice between auditing the backlog or handling their real-time responsibilities such as when contract is awarded, they're supposed to order the proposal to make sure that is right. they in effect sacrificed letting the backlog grow and grow. that is how it grew and grew. >> thank you. is the obama administration aware of this problem? >> oh, i think so . and help congress is -- and i hope congress is, as well. >> thank you, mr. chairman. one of the things i find interesting in this discussi

. >> when i was undersecretary of defense controller, dcaa does not have enough people. when i was there they had 4,000 and they added another thousand. it is nothing compared to the level of contracting that is going on and a number of contracts that are going on. these are very professional folks. most of them have cp as. many come in to government much of lawyers do. we don't have enough of them. this goes to the point that was made earlier by commissioner henke and my other colleagues and we believe this strongly. even in this time of cutting budgets and deficits there has to be spending to save money. if we don't get these people in we will end up hurting the government and industry. the government because there might be money recovered and industry because they are not getting paid when they should get paid. >> i will change the word might to will. it is a proven fact that if you have these audits you are going to discover bills that were submitted that were either fraudulently submitted or mistakes and they were paid more than they should be paid. the outrage is a

please try to tackle that one. >> when i was undersecretary of defense comptroller, dcaa was under me. they simply do not have enough people. when i was there, there were about 4000. i think they have another thousand. it is nothing compared to the level of contracting going on. these are very professional folks. most of them now have cpa's. many of them come from the outside into government. we just do not have enough of them. this goes to the point earlier. we all believe this strongly. even in this time of cutting budgets and deficits, and there has to be some spending to save money. it is a matter of being penny wise and pound foolish. if we do not give these people and, we will hurt the government and industry. there might be money that could be recovered for the government. and industry is not getting paid when they should be. if the audit is not completed, they have a problem, too. >> it is a proven fact that if you have these audits, you will discover a bill that was submitted that was fraudulently submitted or mistakes and they were paid more than they should be. the outrage

what we found was dcaa was responding to necessary priorities and they had a choice between auditing the backlog or u andle real-time responsibilities such as when up billion dollar contract is awarded they're supposed to audit the proposals to make sure it is right. so in effect they sad letting the backlog grow and grow. they met the cllarent but not te old needs. >> is the obama administration e rare of thiwhat >> i think so and i hope congress is as well. >> we will recc.nize the gentleman from virginia for five minutes. >> one thing i find interesting in this discussion is congress almost never takes responsibility for our contribution. when you were in congress we have leadership in the armed services committee that pooh-poohed the idea of the need for more expertise in hiring of contract ma engers, procurement and acquisition expertise. we quadrupled outside contracting but increased personnel by 3% and now we are surprised weekend account for the dollars we are appropriating and does anyone disagree? i heaon b one of the answer is what we need more capability to account for t