deanna deanna when we put this statement by the is right. the minister of defense about cutting off all the food fuel water to gaza along side in the context of what these right of the prime minister has been talking about about taking action that will change the middle east, telling palestinians to get out of gone. so, do you start to have some concerns about whether there is thinking, is really thinking here about demographic change in casa, is on the table. oh, yes. oh, yes, absolutely. and people are now calling for a 2nd not a 2nd, my mass expulsion of palestinians. the 2nd ethnic cleansing, and this is where we're gearing up look it's, it's not that far of a stretch when you hear the statements that have been ongoing, not just over the course of the past few days, but that have been ongoing now for decades by this prime minister and by other is really officials in which they say that it's time to get rid of palestinians that they have to finish to the job of 1948. when you hear that, you just oppose it with the state. by the spot, you ask a lot, who just came out yesterday, calling us human animals and jacks to pose it with the statement buying it to you out saying that people should leave even though there's no place for them to go. because they close off because the strip, what we're really during up to see is mass atrocities, the mass, expulsion of palestinians or the mass. let me jump in as one of them put to these very nice to but we, we hear from these riley minute tree that they are making targeted strikes. they say on how mass quotas, military installations in gone. so this is not mess targeting of the civilian population. that's impossible. busy that's impossible, it is rarely speak now how mess equals gaza and so that any strikes and gaza to them as a justification for targeting him us. and we know that that is not the case. so about 50 percent of the population of the cost. the strip is under the age of 18. they've lived their entire lives only knowing the siege. they haven't had water, they haven't been secure. they've lived through 5 wars, and yet they have no future. and yet the world still continues to behave as though it's business as usual. and as getting on said the siege, the blockade has become totally normalized. the suffering of palestinians has become totally normalized. the dehumanization of palestinians has reached peak for peak levels, such that we're not allowed to even respond back to what israel has done to us for 56 years. all right, let me um, bring gideon back into this can be, is right, a government change them at least and then yeah. who was valley without launching a very serious ground? defensive is that really ultimately what we're looking at. i am sure that you are not asking this seriously because it's ridiculous because he is right and is using the same threats and the same met. so it's that it used so many times in fame, bridge anything. so many times, i really need to decide the more a question, i'm ready to book the side, the legal crush. what? well that if you need to, i mean you are before about the strategic a, a goal or the only search engine your disease or at least can have in mind is getting rid of the students in one way or the other. but this is not the realistic goal and do you think that's the thing that's for some policy makers at least. and these are already contemplating right now. and at least in terms of goals that they can ready if don't get rid but shift the palestinian populations on how in gaza away from the boulder. why would you be getting the better? you mean it's the said, it's clearly when they say about cold or both and bothering, oh gosh, uh, what was your remaining gas up? they didn't get to the bottom by phone, but it's perhaps francesca. so those who might not survive this right. listening to wanting to dump anyway, joe said only a matter of hours ago about how all the medicine, the medical supplies that they have, pre physician, how over the run out, what kind of humanitarian situation all we heading to and how quickly will emerge if people don't have some of the basics, like medicine, food fuel, or even will to arrest these ready defense minister was vowing to count off the gaza. is going to be there. the risks are immense and therefore low. so they're going, sorry, we are no talking over the normal situation. the door was something is cut off from the rest of the world. gas out was already severely defeated and compromised before this happened october and again i, i share the and give you is this me under the normalization of the situation on the, at the corruption because the, the blockade in itself. constituents already and we're crime a form of collect keeps publish meant and what is going to come to happen next. without, without a central supplies food met, it says in water or electricity, people are going to die and the wounded will not be able and that. and as i'm sorry, dieter and hospitals will not be able to tour the wounded and there will be diseases hiding already. people from jobs are fearing, clara, which will happen with the will, the disruption of civilian infrastructure, any disability to cure the wounded. diana, if we look closer at the politics of this, how if we reach this point in terms of complete failure of the political process and the political systems through a number of ways. the 1st is that there is a lot of emphasis on negotiations and some how to state solution rather than focusing on the problem which is military occupation and the denial of freedom and the ethnic cleansing of palestine. that's one. but then beyond that, it's that there is never been in place a system of accountability for regarding israel's actions. israel's never been held to account. my friend, your colleague, shit in a box is just one example. she was assassinated on may the 11th of last year. and today, nobody has been held to account for that, and there are thousands of shit eons that are out there where israel has never been held to account. so in the mindset of is really is, this just becomes a system in which they can do whatever it is that they want to do. and, and so let me jump ahead day on that. you're right. a lot of international organizations have documented killings of what they considered to be extra judicial killings of not only john list and civil society workers, but all the palestinians are members of the palestinian population. and they say very clearly there's a lack of accountability. let me present to the v is railey narrative, and they would say, what has power lies? the political process is what they call terrorism by these palestinian groups that they, they keep practicing, causing the civilians and attacks on civilians as the likes of which we've just seen. sadly few days ago and so many people lost their life. you know, this is again trying to flip things on its head. this is not a 2 way its occupation is a one way occupation is real doing the occupying and palestinians are resisting and trying to obtain their freedom. and if they don't like the response which is violence, then they have to get to the root of it, which is occupation and occupation. there won't be virus, but that's the problem is that everybody keeps slipping. it on his head, a demanding that there will be a peaceful occupation and even then is real. doesn't do anything. so i think rather than the world blaming the victims being the palestinians, they should be looking at themselves and asking themselves, how is it that we've left this system in place now for such a long period of time? how is it that in 2023 we're still talking about the denial of freedom. how is it that this system is still in place and is now apartheid? how is it that this continues to happen? and that's where the, where the problem lies. we need to have adults or going to come forward and who is real accountable without that is will continue to do whatever it wants. and the humanized palestinians in the process and then be shocked when there is a response. get in. i know you said. busy that you don't see, there's a lot of difference right now. the thinking between the far right and the i think the center left was what you were talking about. but bear with me for a moment. get in. when you look back at the statements of people in the is ready to government like the minister of finance does a lot smotts rich, his coal in march for palestinian villages like colada to be a raised is the something of a history in the thinking of at least that broncho is ready, buddy politics about population change, raising villages raising towns as a solution as a policy option. specific one is what he's doing aids slowly, slowly, very gradually. but it allows by the same inform, the bands people were approved from the land speed through uh through this phone, the homes from the properties. and they decided the wage was a $40.00 and they're nice. bentley now they mind besides one day to leave these days we've had but no doubt that the re to recall those. she's who died so that it finish off and they will not see she would they be europeans like that side of smoke damage and bang for adults. no doubt that they were touring is really by far more extreme than they more civilized your story of the central days. maybe they have planned so much small, crazy. but by the end of the day, the real danger is don't they also or moderate watch, because they don't, they basic and they just stop, they establish they, they will keep patient this company. they set too many projects. and the stop is, you know, that, but that's is that they can do it. so the, your relatively solely in there for them much small destruct the because nobody gets the games they, they don't show going. oh no. eh, thing say, you know that the silent majority some bolting boston is one in the world wide dig stream. he said, geez, dreams some kind of for now. so we should concentrate on the main stream of phase, right. this is our problem. francesca if we, if is riley statesman who are making statements like total siege, total bombing. if that is carried out, why do we see a situation in which pressure will mount maybe on egypt to open up that boulder? we witness some kind of mass exodus of palestinians from gonzo into egypt. well, this is what kind of this time this is. i mean, is one of the possible scenarios because this is what is right there are these things meant by threatening officials seeing the sensor in the response by each shift i've challenging this, this is not the possible scenario. but what it seems to me is that the measure of stick and including the bomb being on their off how crossing seems to intention to be starving, kill the people who are and said, sorry to because us troops now. and of course, part of the students here that the defense of a 2nd not about which wouldn't be really a 2nd because there are being so many senses of displacement, including we shouldn't forget to them. in 1967 to 160000 college students were displaced to so it's been a, an ongoing force displacement for them. but of course, the fear that i'm doing that that would be possibly displaced and never allowed to return even to the, to belittle and to the very day of being confined to and also get in. i know we talked a moment ago about what is this strategic thinking? can we talk at least a bit about what is the broad a goal? is the calculus or is the pro, the goal here to try and return to a situation where you can have an occupation and extended occupation with level cost to as well as security to its reputation. to get back to that kind of scenario, is that what's being targeted? that's exactly what this level is sort of like to limit the sense security or the connection was being a door closing guideline the worst. and then there was but i mean let us ok by then does through your internet. but that sees that does q civilians that does approve them from their lives and don't bother us and don't disease and be here. and you said there is even a problem. easy viewing behavioral. so we're going to you that piece, namely women, brian, you with the money stuff and the everyone will be happy that by this date is saying don't start the day, is not the 1st by the most good, by the way there, but it did say the 7 days this is not enough and these cannot block for the data. since we're talking about changing calculus is has the calculus change for internal palestinian politics especially the p a off to the events, the recent events we're seeing? oh, most most definitely. yes. looking to change it for a while because we've increasingly seeing that the palestinian authority has lost all support both in the west bank and the gaza strip. we are of course, seeing that more and more people recognize that there is that there needs to be resistance to military occupation. and the palestinian authority has done absolutely nothing to protects palestinians or to even offer an alternative. so yes, the calculation has completely changed. now, within the mindset of palestinians, so much so that of imagine my food i bass who was irrelevant before has been made even more irrelevant. now a sign chesko, what other political options going forward do you think of this kind of very bleak scenario and just want to comment on and again, not without. i know that this is something that might, might sound a strong while. there is a right to resist an oppressive regina, and the policy has have been on a lot under oppressive regina for decades. now. it's also, there is any parent you have to remind ourselves that model scheming a is not justified to so i would like to take the car. i mean, saturday, as an example, not to go to the show francesca and yeah and, and now in terms of what are the political options, i will tell you what i would recommend and been because there is nothing that is really being put on the table by the mean policy makers, other than one sided to support and, and violence and armed are the responses to. so i think the 1st of all it's, it's fundamental to negotiate the truths with immediate suspicion of a student is the release of the hostages. but also the other person to the policy. and so we're going to have someone come on you, we've gone through the so many times, haven't we? in conflicts, i like stones all over this. just the 1st step isn't just the 1st step. the 2nd, these are important things you might need, are you an aide and then forming the un task force to ensure, i'm sorry, to monitor a truce, but also to ensure it protects the presence of the, of the students and others on the ground. because and again, this has always been to decide that the, this is the in the short term in the longer term, meaning me during the term. what does need to be the, the device is a comma to him to be able to patients, but not in any years. it is to be stuff it needs to start to be discussed now and not in a visa gene, the realization of productivity and self determination. and seen a long as the piece process is a cheese because this is like picking the cutting the air, frankly. all right, this country more. i'm sure that we could discuss what i have to leave it there for now. let's try and call guess francesca and vanessa deanna bhutto. i'm gideon, lovey, and thank you to, for watching. you can visit the show again, any time by heading over to our website. i'll just 0. don't com for further discussion. go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story can also join the conversation on x, formerly known as twist. though you might remember a handle there is that a j inside story from the sign is a that on the whole team here. so now the award winning deb investigations give compelling insights into total storms from asia and the pacific one. 0, one east. on out to 0, the israel continues its bombardment of gauze into the night, at least $900.00 palestinians and now dead, including $260.00 children. hospitalization, overwhelms and the besieged cause. this trip as the united nations calls for humanitarian, colorado. the color that i'm associated, hey, this is all to 0 life from the also coming thousands of broken.

deanna for q&a and i can stop sharing slides. deanna: thank you both. super interesting. a reminder for everyone, if you do have questions, go ahead. we have a couple already. i will get started. todd, ryan, it will be at your discretion. first question, how does social media correlate with veterans joining or participate? todd: we do not know specifically but we know that social media is a key. not that there is anything inherently bad about social media but it connects people to like ideas. it provides often times a venue for individuals to engage in dialogue and debate and discussion. which is great. but when you get into these ideological funnels, where people become more extreme politically, then they have the social network likewise that becomes more politically extreme. which can often times ignite or facilitate radicalization because people online are sharing extremist content and getting reinforced for sharing that content. they are getting reinforced for even more extreme ideas amongst their social network. and they feel emboldened because without the social media, you would never know. it would be hard to connect with these groups. but with social media, it is easy to connect and feel you are not alone and many people have these views. social media is a key radicalization element. i don't know whether veterans are more likely to rely on this. my guess is probably not. it is probably an equal opportunity issue but ryan may have other ideas. ryan: it is a common but not necessary pathway for those we have seen. both those in extremism more broadly and the conversations we have had. it is kind of an option and one of many pathways. we strive at the number of face-to-face connections that seem to be supporting a lot of these beliefs or cohorts and groups who believe similarly about the need for political violence. there are some very clear narratives where that was the primary radicalization pathway and later became face-to-face. there are quite especially with older veterans who may not be as likely to be tech savvy. some of them are extremely tech 70 and older veterans as well but it's kind of all over the place and we just don't have an answer statistically. deanna: ok, we have a couple of questions here about different types of extremism. i'm just going to paraphrase. i know the work you talked about today focuses i believe mostly on far right extremism. if i remember the study correctly. can you talk about the prevalence of the risk of that compared with other types of extremism you found in this work or maybe some of your other studies you've done? todd: you want to take a shot, ryan? ryan: for the veterans, we did not look specifically at islamic extremism. a lot of todd's prior work has focused on that. in terms of the overall risk and we've seen a shift over the last decade or so towards let's say non-religious, -- there is still a risk but todd, you want to -- ryan: todd: terrorism fluctuates and wanes. we know terrorism grew. they are fed by changing ideologies in the population so that's why you see in the 1970's, left-wing extremism was the most problematic in common. there is a period where animal-rights extremism was common and it mi