but those are supposed to come from countries that are supposed to deindustrialize, dedevelop and decarbonizeer the coming years. the money is supposed to be coming from countries whose economies will be shrinking, fewer people employed, less ability to pay this green climate fund money. on the other hand, i think we're looking at voluntary goals which means the developing countries will be able to continue building thousands of coal fired power plants and gas fired power plants and lifting people out of poverty and trying to help. 1.3 billion people in the world, who still don't have electricity in their lives. >> eileen claussen do you agree when paul dresen says basically decarbonizing is synonymous with deindustrializing? >> no, i don't. not at all. i mean obviously we need energy. and we need electricity. the issue is, where do you get it from? and can you get it in a way that is carbon free or very limited carbon? and i think there's no question that you can. you can use nuclear power rather than coal-fired power plants. can you use renewables which now -- you can use renewables which a

then, fourth, we have no idea what level of dedevelopment would bes me to maintain our current climate. fifth, the solution, destroying carbon-based fuels and capitalism is the problem. he says the left is in an all-out war with the two greatest forces for fighting poverty in history. cheap carbon-based energy and capitalism. the same people celebrating the end of the industrial revolution economic model seem to forget that that economic model, boosted by carbon based fuels, ave led to a massive drop in global poverty. in 1990, 1.9 billion lived under 836 per day as opposed to million in 2015. that's because of the dominance of capitalism and the increased efficiency of technology. it's certainly not because of governmental, environmental on the left say we can maintain our current standard of living while hopping in a time machine to less usage of carbon without reference to market efficiencies. this is foolishness. we have time machines. they are called airplanes. folks on the left ought to fly to countries where people don't have coal, oil, natural gas or free markets and watch them