i am joined by dennis reid, director of - by dennis reid, director of silver voices, which campaignsff arejoining us, that keir starmer said yesterday in the interview with the bbc that actually, the rise in what pensioners get because of the triple lock here will more than cover the loss for anything that they lose with these fuel duty cuts?— that they lose with these fuel duty cuts? well, yes, but the trile duty cuts? well, yes, but the triple lock — duty cuts? well, yes, but the triple lock is _ duty cuts? well, yes, but the triple lock is supposed - duty cuts? well, yes, but the triple lock is supposed to - triple lock is supposed to cover inflation generally, not just energy prices, and in any event, the rise that he is talking about does not come in until next april so that does not help us with this winter at all. i think the government has picked an unnecessary battle here with older people, and both the right and left of politics seem united against it. so i think they are going to have to rethink at some stage, even if they get the regulation through tomorrow. keir starmer