that's a remarkable man, and dennison kitchall was himself a very unusual man. he came from a very social family in new york. his father was the manager partner in the law firm that is the oldest law firm in new york, i looked that up, and he -- he went kitchall went to st. paul and yale and harvard law school and then moved out to arizona and he came from this long social background in new york, his grandfather had told greek at yale during the civil war, and then he got involved in all -- and kitchall was a very unusual man hand they did not remain friends, and you will read now, at his suggestion, i met kitchall once, and he was not -- he was -- it was clear they were still not very friendly, and i think if there is any person -- he got him to go to arizona. if he hadn't been in arizona when barry goldwater became the candidate for president of the united states, all of the contacts and all of the things that happened to make him chief justice never would have happened. if we had been working in santa fe or denver, those are just other cities. in 1964, the ca