dodes, you just heard joachin.ou have been critical of aa's ties to religious organizations and faith. you heard joachin. it helped him. why is faith necessarily problematic for you when it comes t alcoholism? >> it's not problematic. the issue is that it has nothing to do with addiction. it's caused harm for people who believe that they are not working hard enough or having enough faith or enough spirituality and that that's their problem. i have nothing against that at all? for many people, it actually, for many people, it's a turn-off that there is -- that aa is basically a faith-based organization. it started out from a fundamentalist christian group called the oxford group. bill wilson who founded aa was a deeply religious man who felt that that was the way out for people with addiction. actually, it has nothing to do with addiction. it doesn't help some people. we have been on the wrong track thinking that addiction is a deficit of spirituality. it just isn't. >> we reached out to alcoholics anonymous to join