did we think about dolley madison and the impact she had? it's taking us back. >> way back. >> way back. >> dolley madison was criticized. people criticized here, didn't they, and thought she was too fancy and too much into fashion and too aristocratic, not democratic enough. >> not democratic enough, but you could come to dolley madison's parties as long as you were appropriately dressed, so for their time very democratic. when you think that dolley madison grew up as a quaker, so when she married james madison, she broke from this quaker background, so a woman who had been very demurely dressed suddenly had this ability to really just blazen out in amazing clothes and she's fond of reds and turbans. she's able to fulfill this dazzling vision -- you have to wonder if this is what she longed to look like as a little girl. >> yeah. >> and there are some of dolley madison's dazzling red i have to say. when you say one had to be appropriately dressed going to visit the white house, what did that mean at that time? >> well, a lot of controversy

>> mary lincoln wanted to be dolley madison.ad war not broken out she probably would have been an incredibly successful white house hostesses. but a civil war happened. so on the one hand mary's doing the right thing, showing stature and stability of the president by entertaining, dressing well, playing this part. on the other hand, there's a war going on and you're going to be criticized for fashion. she's in an uncomfortable situation. she doesn't have as much of her husband's time as she would normally have. elizabeth keckley was also a southerner, someone she can relate to and becomes her confidant. so fashion is a way they can talk together and work together. it became her downfall in the end. she was taken out by something called the old clothes scandal where mary tried to sell her old clothes, which is hardly a disreputable thing to do. she was so afraid after the president's death of being impoverished that she employed elizabeth keckley to go with her to new york, where they were trying to be discrete. but people knew w

just like dolley madison. one more question we will open it up to the audience.s difficult one actually. what was madison's greatest disappointment with respect to the constitution in those formative years of the republic? >> well you know he was -- what the constitution when it was finished that he thought it was the best of human beings could do so he became a permanent defender but at the end of his life and all throughout his life he hated slavery. he wrote a letter as a young man when he said i want to do everything i can to become independent of slave labor and he wanted to get off of his father's plantation or farm and live an independent life in which he wouldn't be dependent upon that dreadful institution. and he tried but he didn't really have a long time to try added because he became involved in public life and created the constitution so forth. so he we didn't succeed. jefferson also hated slavery and he didn't succeed either bringing himself from it. so i don't think he had such a goal, such a firm goal as madison did. but at the end of long lives t