- i don't know if you noticed, but i reported in my book "kushner inc.", the reason trump hired don mcgahnt lawyer inside the republican community. it was because trump knew his father, and he represented him and had been on the other side. he said patty mcgahn was a nasty piece of work. he admired that. >> we know he likes that. you raise human side, which is so different than all the rules and all the case law you see in there a hope -- some might call it a delusion, others arrogance, that these people like mr. cork ran who i have not accusesed of misconduct, although patterns are concerned he could be accuse odd of that if he doesn't get ahead of it, really believe they would change him and found, oh, boy, if i don't get tapes going, he's going to pin it on me. >> right. it hasn't worked out historically well for the lawyers. although i will point out, historically trump has hubris for a reason -- it has worked out to date well for him in all the cases that matter. even when his company declared bankruptcy. he was so nonchalant about that. i reported this in my 2014 book "the liar's bal

don mcgahn was ultimately there in his office. excuse me, not don mcgahn.ne was in his office. >> replacement at white house counsel. >> he's also the person who would be shepherding them out and documenting at mar-a-lago. aside from the tape we heard about, this recording recently, i think it's really a central witness and a witness who has not always been cooperative, for example at the january 6th committee and right, and it's a remind over that contrast. mcgahn, it's funny you mentioned, did cooperate with mueller but tried to duck congress. meadows, we're seeing the same play. in all fairness, imagine any member of congress you don't like, imagine them running a committee, and imagine someone going to their lawyer and saying what can we do to legally delay or stall talking with the lawyer? that's different than the pressure to deal with the an openly federal criminal probe. or plead the fifth. walk us through the criminal probe. they both need to gather the facts, but also they could use a grand jury to begin building their case, including rebutting de

we know that when it came out that don mcgahn had spent all this time with mueller.o go back and refute what he had told investigators. the information that is contained in the indictment from this witness is obviously stuff that is not favorable to trump. it is damning and it is damaging. and he has not shown an ability to change his behavior. so what is he going to do in response to this? and how is he going to react with someone who is very closely in his orbit, who is working very closely, you know, on his political campaign. and someone he's interacting with on a very frequent basis. >> i mean, david jolly, the narrative fits that bill as well. i mean, everybody implicated and exposed criminally in the conspiracy to willfully retain classified material is someone in his inner circle. it has, in this instance, an echo to the sloid committee. everyone that was a witness to the coup was a trump supporter, either on his campaign, an ally in congress or an ally in a battleground state he lost and tried to steal. >> that's right. and the people closest to donald trump

don mcgahn, the white house counsel, asked him to obstruct justice. we know that because he came to the mueller investigation and said that i will not commit a crime for him. pat cipollone, i suspect that he will be a witness in the january 6th case. he said, at some point, you had to say where is the beef, because i would not go along with the fact that there was a coup, because there is no proof that there was fraud and the election. you have mr. corcoran now saying, i am not going along with destroying documents or hiding them or lying to the government. and then you have michael cohen, and michael cohen went along and paid the price for it. those are for lawyers, and it gives you a real sense of how donald trump uses lawyers. the reason donald trump said to don mcgahn -- which is just a remarkable statement, if you know anything about roy comb. and then to your point, i think it's important to step back and talk a lot about the strength that the case but also to talk about what the case is really about. we decide the obstruction. there were 31 cou

don mcgahn, the white house counsel, asked him to obstruct justice. we know that because he came to the mueller investigation and said that i will not commit a crime for him. pat cipollone, i suspect that he will be a witness in the january 6th case. he said, at some point, you had to say where is the beef, because i would not go along with the fact that there was a coup, because there is no proof that there was fraud and the election. you have mr. corcoran now saying, i am not going along with destroying documents or hiding them or lying to the government. and then you have michael cohen, and michael cohen went along and paid the price for it. those are for lawyers, and it gives you a real sense of how donald trump uses lawyers. the reason donald trump said to don mcgahn -- which is just a remarkable statement, if you know anything about roy comb. and then to your point, i think it's important to step back and talk a lot about the strength that the case but also to talk about what the case is really about. we decide the obstruction. there were 31 cou

. >> it's a great point, and the closest anyone came was robert mueller's volume 2 where don mcgahn and his chief of staff's notes where trump tells him to fire mueller and put out the false statement, it's i think obstructive acts 3, 4, and 5 that come the closest to what katy is saying, but actual trump's voice on tape we haven't heard or seen before. >> donald trump's reaction to don mcgahn. >> he fired him. he ultimately fired him. >> why are you taking notes. because i don't want a record. >> he ripped up papers and flushed them down the toilet. >> i think he swallowed some, didn't he? >> just a little harbinger, this is what you will see in the january 6th case because there is going to be a tape there of famously the georgia tape, and you are going to have, again, insiders, a lot of lawyers, white house lawyers who are going to talk about what exactly they heard donald trump say and what they told him. so it's going to be repeated over and over again. it's a disaster. >> it's not helpful to donald trump. >> let's met bring in an expert voice, msnbc justice and legal affairs analy

let's see, don mcgahn, trump's white house legal counsel. jeff sessions, trump's first attorney general. the trump, the trump state department. again, i was very disappointed in the trump administration and now apparently so, too, are a lot of trumpers for the unequal application of the law. here's on the "daily news," hoard, conceal, obstruction, lie. that just about sums it up, and the official paper of record for "morning joe,". >> just for the record, unlike our counter parts, we covered hillary clinton. "arraign on his parade." >> not bad. >> today is donald trump's 77th birthday. >> rappy birthday. taking the rap. >> and you're right, we were very critical, just ask our progressive followers every day on twitter. we were very critical of hillary clinton during that time for things she should have done, things we didn't think she did do. i guess, though, again, this is all, willie, it's all one way, right? we report on both sides. they report some of the more extreme people report on, you know, what serves them well. they're for law and

volume ii was all about don mcgahn and his being asked to sub bit a fake affidavit. >> the former white house. >> correct. then you have pat cipollone testifying he was not willing to go along with a fake insurrection. >> another white house counsel. >> exactly. then you have michael cohen, a personal attorney, he said yes and paid the price for that because he pled guilty to a crime, as he has said under oath, he committed for the former president. if you're being asked to represent him, there's four people you can look at on record where you know what you're getting into, which is you better have a really stiff backbone. >> i want to talk, chuck rosenberg, about the idea of having someone as a client who is going to do what he wants to do, say what he wants to say. that's the tradition. that's the history of donald trump. just today going after the prosecutors calling him a thug, a radical right lunatic and, you know, saying the country is going to hell. how much of it is -- how do you defend someone who thinks he always knows the law better than you? is that part of the calculation h

plus spoke don mcgahn, big players, smart people, close people to donald trump, they all knew the processalked to trump about it as well. so what trump says publicly contradicts what you have learned here. >> exactly. this is a career official. it's somebody who advised the trump and obama administrations on the classification process. it's somebody with direct knowledge of how those two m administrations followed the process and even cited specific examples about times that the trump administration followed the correct process. so it's really interesting to hear what this official was asked by prosecutors in both different investigations. in the trump probe, prosecutors were really aggressively focused on anything that had to do with firsthand interactions with trump, especially about conversations related to the declassification process. we have seen that play out in the times of this interview. we have seen official gos in and testify before the grand jury about the declassification process and about their conversations with trump. compared to the biden interview, it was very different

nauta is sitting in that courtroom because of donald trump. >> of course. >> it is what he asked don mcgahn a former white house council to do. it's what he asked pat cipollone to go along with. it's what michael cohen went along with and actually paid a price. so walt nauta is there, is sitting there because donald trump solicited another person and who actually agreed. he's enlisted attorneys to go along. >> tried to get corcoran. yeah. >> in terms of aswhaegs he did, it's not like he just did it on his own and said you know what? i'll bear the consequences for what i did. it reminds me very much of what's in the indictment where he says to corcoran, why can't you just get rid of these documents and then i won't have a problem. so that's why walt nauta is there. it's just so deplorable when you think about the sort of power relationship. >> absolutely. >> and what he is doing with it. >> it's gross. and i actually wanted to ask you this question. i think the fact that their lawyers are talking to each other, they're sitting there together. i don't know if nauta did his plea today, but he

don mcgahn tells him, can't do it, nothing there.inistration and justice department and obama's justice department both said nothing there with hillary. this forces them to look at donald trump and blame him. as karl rove said, it's his fault. >> the white house has kind of been a little bit silent on this. they're letting the story evolve and i think they're trying to stay above the fray. but when democrats do that, they usually get eaten. >> it worked for michael dukakis, though. >> are they going to fight back? >> the group is running the most aggressive super pac holding the gop accountable. poor jim co-her. he can't even put on a show like dan burton could. there's nothing there. they keep embarrassing themselves. this time around i think they're going to see an aggressive reaction from hunter and his team, because he's sick of taking this. the white house plays it pretty safe. i can imagine they will want to try to stay above the fray. they need to play by the rules that exist, not the rules pre-trump. >> we just showed a pictu