really in all of the debate it pops up like the dormouse in the tea party and he says no i don't thinkthat we should say no cruel and unusual punishment. and he sits down so sometimes the debate are not about the high-minded things we pictured in the bill of rights, but i think people -- it helps you be amazed that it's turned out so well. >> even at the beginning when the justices wrote a circuit in the early years they gave them grand jury charges and the judges love to say how advanced a society we were because we had in the bill of rights no cruel and unusual punishment and what that meant was that we did have the death penalty. we didn't draw and corner people >> at once the 18th century was a society where the standard of what is via went to us today wasn't the same standard. they beat apprentices, parents beat children that still goes on today unfortunately. certainly slaves were beaten. the kind of a poor answer -- outpourings is in a different standard and this fellow really spoke for the 18th century when he said some people just need to be wiped what's face it. >> could you

from new england who has not said a word really and all of the debates sort of pops up like the dormouset the mad hatter tea party and he says oh no i don't think we should say no cruel and unusual punishment because some men just need to be whipped. and then he sits down. so sometimes the debates are so not about the high-minded things we picture in the bill of rights but i think people -- it helps that the bill of rights turned out so well. >> host: even at the beginning when the justices went around they road circuit in the early years. they gave grand jury charges and the judges love to say how advanced a society we were because we had in the bill of rights cruel and unusual punishment and what that meant was that we did have the death penalty. we didn't draw and quarter people. that was a great sign. right? >> guest: exactly and it was the 18th century and it was a society where the standard of what is beilinson to us today was not the same standard. masters beat apprentices, parents beat children and that still goes on today unfortunately. certainly slaves were beaten and the kind