we need to hear from doug shulman and there needs to be more heads rolling. people who are there at the irs. >> let me jump in and ask me this. this i think is important. we know that members of the senate, members of the house, democrats, they were asking for these groups to be targeted. they were requesting to get the added scrutiny, and it then happened. >> yeah. yeah. absolutely. there are a number of democrats who have letters back and forth with the irs and with the commissioner and with different managers within the irs who were specifically asking for this increased scrutiny. and then to top it all off, you have sarah hall ingram, who is the commissioner of that particular department of the tax-exempt organizations within the irs, and now where is she? she's heading up the obamacare division of the irs. same person who was targeting tea partyers and other groups, she's still there and she was promoted. how does that happen? >> leslie, i think it would be honest of those of you on the left to say for the sake of every american, you know, we now reach a

>> doug shulman. >> doug shulman. >> the irs commissioner is appointed by the president of the united states. >> who appointed mr. shulman? >> mr. shulman was appointed in the previous administration. >> thank you. >> my point to you, martin, which if you'll listen to nigh point here. >> absolutely. >> this is somehow obama's above it all, this isn't the obama administration, the irs is independent. that is absolutely false. if president obama had the ability to fire the acting irs commissioner, that means that's a person in the obama administration. this is an obama scandal. this is an obama scandal. >> one sec. we're getting a bit confused about chronology. let's continue. nancy pelosi spoke to the republicans' incredible expanding scandal and its purposes. i'd like you to listen to this. >> they will use these as evasions of what the american people want us to do here. they want us to create jobs. now, if you're a pearty in congress and you have no intention of creating jobs, you will change the subject. so i think this is much about forcing their anti-government ideology. >> joy,

. >> reporter: also testifyingg doug shulman the former director of the irs is testifying that h didn't tell congress for two o years the irs was being probed. >> i had some the facts, not al of the facts. i had no idea of the scope and severity. i didn't know the full list, i t didn't know who was on the list. >> reporter: communityity members frustrated over the lacr of irs cooperation grew angry. >> miss lerner gets to exerciser her constitutional rights butst she won'itt stay here and answer questions about theq constitutional rights ofs thousands of americans who weree denied by their actions. th >> reporter: it lead to a a special prosecutor.sp it wilecl lead to special counsl being appointed to get to theed bottom of this. so i hope that is not the approach of the irs going forward. because there will be held to pay. >> later the former irs directoe was asked why lois lerner was awarded performance bonuses while her office was the subjece of an inspector general probe. b >> miss lerner who is the header of it, got the total of $740,000 between 2009, and 2012 over $42,000 in bonus

so the idea there's some conspiracy, doug shulman being the head of it doesn't make sense. >> let me go back to jenny beth. your view, i believe, what i've been able to understand of this, the national effort to review these kinds of applications like yours, the national effort was tasked to the cincinnati office and they were handling all this across the country. this wasn't some little pigeon holed operation. this was the effort to do this fairly. apparently they weren't doing it fairly. they were targeting the right. your thoughts. >> they weren't doing it fairly, and is lois lerner a low-level employee? she knew about it last year, and in 2011. on friday she was saying it was low-level employees involved. is she a low-level employee or not? >> she was on the federal election commission. >> i would say that's probably not a low-level job. and it doesn't -- if it was a bush appointee, obama appointee, i don't care who appointed them people. this is not republican, it's not democrat. it's wrong to do, and it's about the people who are unelected who have too much power, abusing the p

doug shulman was cleared in but many times his deputies went.ious question is how many times did he go? more importantly what did he talk to white house officials about? who did he meet with? the white house can't answer exactly how many times he went but they do insist when he did go to the white house his preliminary discussions were about obama care because the irs has a really important role in implementing obama care. that's the primary reason he was going to the white house to talk to officials there. the other thing they point out at the white house is doug shulman testified under oath, penalty of perjury, that he didn't tell anybody at the white house discussed this whole idea of targeting so the whole idea he was having discussions about this they say just isn't true. >> why didn't he just say i went to the white house on many occasions to talk about obama care because the irs does have a legitimate tax related function as far as implementing obama care. instead he was flippant in saying well there were easter egg rolls and i would take

meanwhile, on capitol hill, lawmakers grilled former irs commissioner doug shulman, who led the agency from 2008 to 2012. stabenow: "but why didn't you know when you were there?" shulman: "i- i agree that this is an issue that when someone spotted it, they should have run up the chain and they didn't. and why they didn't, i don't know." shulman contends he was not responsible for the controversy and regrets it happened when he was at the helm. as federal reserve chairman ben benarnke heads to capitol hill today to talk about the economy, the wall street journal reports traders are concerned about comments in a fed paper regarding high-speed trading. it calls for trades to be executed every half-second, versus the current steady stream of computer trading. high- frequency prefer high speeds, saying it adds liquidity to the market. the fed paper argues it blocks out average investors. a bill that will help approve construction of the keystone pipeline is expected to pass the house today. the legislation would speed along the construction process of the pipeline's northern route. the plan

about a year ago then irs commissioner doug shulman appeared before your house appropriations sub kmit tell you then? >> we asked him directly are you targeting or is the irs targeting conservative groups? are they targeting any groups based upon political ideology. he told me then and the committee then it wasn't happening. and it couldn't have happened. he invoked nixon. after nixon we put safeguards in place so it could never happen again. i assure you it's not happening. we got to know when commissioner shulman knew what was going on there. we're finding out shortly after he testified before my committee he knew. did he know beforehand? we now know he knew afterwards and didn't come back and correct the record. that's one of the challenges we have. not only the incident itself but why didn't anyone come before congress and when they testified actually corrected the record? we feel very misled on this. because we were asking direct questions, ma rhee wra. is this happening? they were telling us all along no, no, no. it can't happen and it wouldn't happen. it's not possible. now we k

doug shulman was that person during this time period. he a republican, a george bush appointee.e a credible way to charge that the administration somehow influenced a republican george bush appointee to somehow scuttle the attempts of tea party groups to become 501 c 4s? >> it's a great question, i think the jury still out. i think the president's comments were absolutely accurate. my colleague joe klein has a great point about the whole issue. the president has been rightfully proud of the lack of scandal in his administration so far. if you think about it, an $800 billion stimulus package. no opponents could find no evidence of graft there. there's been no major scandals of top aides. but we do need to get to the bottom of this. it is kind of a cut-and-dry thing. whoever is responsible should be fired. >> the response in 2004, bob, when the irs not investigated to allow a 501 c 4, but actually audited the naacp because the head of the naacp made some statements against george w. bush, i remember the outrage and the firings over there were oh, wait a minute, there were no outra

we didn't learn much new from doug shulman or from steven miller, who replaced him as the acting irs commissioner until president obama fired him last week. steve miller did acknowledge that he was the one who orchestrated that planted question at a bar conference that resulted in the disclosure of this in advance of the i.g. report, and he took some flak from senators on the committee for not having corrected the record after earlier irs officials had said the targeting had not taken place. >> you didn't mention any of this in your responses to me, to the senate, or any other congressional body. mr. miller, that's a lie by omission. there's no question about that in my mind. it's a lie by omission. >> mr. hatch, i did not lie. >> you what? >> i did not lie, sir. >> you lied by omission. you knew it was going on, and you knew that we had asked. you should have told us. >> now, we don't expect to get much news tomorrow either at the house oversight committee, but that doesn't mean it won't be a bad day for the white house, because we heard lois learnor plans to take the fifth amendmen

commissioner doug shulman was asked about it in a ways and means committee hearing. >> there's absolutely no targeting. this is the kind of back-and- forth that happens when people apply for 501(c)(4) status. >> reporter: shulman, a bush appointee, left the agency in november of 2012 when his five- year term expired. the i.r.s. claims shulman wasn't aware of the targeting at the time he testified. despite the actions, his own deputy, lois lerner, had taken to put an end to the practice 17 months earlier. on friday, three years after i.r.s. specialists were first told to be on the lookout for tea party applications, the agency finally admitted its mistake and then only because the treasury department-- which investigated the matter at the request of congress-- was about to release its damaging findings. commissioner shulman has not been replaced, so the acting commissioner, steven miller, has been called to testify before the ways and means committee here on capitol hill on friday. scott, it is miller's signature on some of those i.r.s. letters to congress insisting over the years that the

. >> speaking of the irs yesterday we learned former commissioner doug shulman made 159 visits to the white house between january 2009 and november 2012. it is an extremely high number and raises the question why. last night the former commissioner over bush said during his tenure he could not image going to the white house that many times. >> i testified last year i only went over there to my recollection once on an inner agency policy manner if you will to talk about immigration reform. >> can you, because you know the job, is there anything on earth that could get him in that white house 157 times? can you give me any reason? >> he bung elled. >> is there any reason that would braining hing him over th times? >> the administration was considering healthcare and tax reform. the service needs to be part of conversations about what is going to happen if that bill becomes law. that's totally legitimate. what i did do, bill, i testified before the isa committee and expressed concern about the service being wrapped up in the affordable care act. it can create a perception that the irs du

fact there will be another hearing tomorrow and the man in the hot seat, the former commissioner doug shulmant year, told members of congress there was nothing increment happening here at the irs. certainly they will be asking lots of tough questions tomorrow on the hill. back to you mike and andrea. >>> former montgomery county executive doug duncan may make another run for the office. the 57-year-old served three terms as montgomery county executive before making a short bid for governor in 2006. at a family cookout he thinks he could help move the county forward. >> right now you have the school board fighting county council fighting. too much divisiveness in the county and it hurts fusaria built to get things down and to grow our tax base. >> drunk can dropped out of the maryland gubernatorial race citing a battle with depression at the time. >>> today the operators of maryland's fourth casino are going to test machines for state regulators. the rocky gap casino restore is near companyber lan. is that boeing's 787 dreamliner return to the skies over the united states today. united will st

expected to testify, doug shulman. he is a former commissioner who, last year, told members of congress that there was nothing wrong here at the irs, and with their process of offering tax- exempt status to certain grows. the inspect tore general, who testified before congress friday, he began his probe into the irs last year. we now know the treasury department knew of the investigation at that time. and the office of the white house counsel was told about the investigation nearly a month ago. but president obama only learned when most americans did that workers of the irs cincinnati field office red flagged tax-exempt applications for groups with the term tea pear, 912 or patriot. white house senior adviser dan firefighter hit the talk shows and said despite the investigation it was for the withheld purposely from the president. >> here's the cardinal rule is you do not infear in an independent investigation and you do not do anything to give the appearance of interference if an independent investigation jo but the t

also today the irs faces the senate banking committee and doug shulman is testifying.viously that the irs was not targeting groups. and scandal thick and fast, the white house knew about the investigation earlier than we've been told. lois lerner's apology was prearranged and jay carney says the white house counsel now about it last month and so he did the president's chief of staff and he says the president was not told. you're going to see this drama unfold today. oh, and that roaring stock market, the opening trend will be up. now, look at gold and silver down big, the day after their big turn around and of course, there is apple stock. we're going to check that. it's likely to be down a couple of bucks and now, check out the politician's outrage at apple's no tax anywhere story. >> and apple then sought, successfully, the holy grail of tax avoidance. what they've been able to do is create phantom things in ireland, i haven't seen anything like this. we don't know of anybody who has seen anything like this. # ♪ [ agent smith ] i've found software that intries me. ia

a couple things, doug shulman wouldn't tell us anything. wouldn't answer hard any any questions., here is one thing that i think is critically important. the inspector general tipped off doug shulman may 30th of last year five months before an election he told mr. shulman there was a list. key terms like tea party, the of 9-12 and patriot were used to groups were getting extra scrutiny. he tipped off the democrat administration the inspector general didn't tell our committee when we were the ones that asked for the audit and we are the committee that oversees all the inspector generals in the government? they told the democrat administration that these terms were being used to identify groups and they didn't tell us? megyn, that's something we would like to know as republicans in an election year. we didn't know that but the other side did and they kept it quiet. >> what do you think is going to happen now with lois lerner? we had a segment about 20 minutes ago about whether she had waived fifth amendment rights by offering that statement. she didn't need to do. she could have do

hard to say what it makes former irs commissioner doug shulman, the fact he did stop by the executiveion more than any cabinet member and at least 158 times more than the previous irs commissioner says he did for official business has raised eye brows, katie, that's remarkable and unprecedented. what is going on? >> it's abnormal you would think because he visited the white house so often it was normal if you go back to the bush administration and markç eversn was running the irs, he only visited the white house one time. now, we have to look at what why would measure shulman be visiting the white house under president obama, and we see that obamacare has a lot to do with it but we need more answers on who he met with, why he was there and what was discussed. >> neil: that's just more than an occasional meet and greet. that is a lot of time there, and it's not as if the buildings are next door to each other. you have to make a concerted effort to visit with people. so it does raise concerns about what might have been going on. we don't know. but have you ever recalled that many visit

two irs -- to irs commissioner doug shulman. f letters from senator levin went to irs commissioner shulman in july, beginning in july 2012, and he was complaining about a reaction to a letter that he got from -- that he had sent to lois lerner. he is saying that, essentially, lois lerner basically gave him an unsatisfactory response to his query. he's saying that the irs, quote: was behaving passively. he also said in his letter to the irs commissioner, how long after a complaint to the irs does the compliance review begin? so, jenna, these are letters we are staying on top of throughout the day and we don't know if there are even more letters involves from both sides of the aisle, not just republicans to the irs, pressuring the irs to act during elections season. jenna: what exactly where were e letters asking for? what initially did they want? >> well, senator levin's letter cited a dozen group that is he wanted the irs to look into to see whether or not they were doing multipoliticking as they were acting as nonprofits in viol

lori: everyone has to pay their dues. 157 white house visits later why ex-irs commissioner doug shulman more than any other cabinet member. "wall street journal's" steve moore just ahead as the pressure mounts for a special prosecutor. ashley: is bon jovi the new ben bernanke? the rock star's economic plan to combat the crisis in europe just ahead. ♪ . we went out and asked people a simple question: how old is the oldest person you've known? we gave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't chaed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪ we don't let frequent heartburn come between us and what we love. so if you're one of them people who gets heartburn and then treats day afr day... block the acid with prilosec otc and don't get heartburn in the first place! [ male announcer ] e pill eachmorning. 24 hours. zero heartbur with your fox busines

details on former commissioner doug shulman are coming to light on congressional hearings why he had visited the white house so many times. >> what would be some of the reasons you might be at the white house? >> easter egg roll with my kids. questions about the administerability of tax policy they were thinking of. >> all right. >> our budget. martha: that did not go over well, the easter egg chat there at the end of that. jonah goldberg joins me now. he is editor-at-large for "national review" and a fox news contributor. jonah, this surfaced obviously during the hearing that he was there 157 times but it has really sunk in to the sort of kind of bloodstream on this story. and when you look at it, you see how many fewer times people who were much higher up and much closer to the president visited the white house. what comes next in terms of learning what husband business was there on all of those trips? >> no, look, it doesn't pass the smell test. the white house is constantly saying this is an independent agency. it is not under any political direction. solely about collecting reve

. >> eric: doug shulman, the irs commissioner, may have been a bush employee, but he is under barack obama. >> eric, it's the suggestion that he was doing political bidding. incidentally, he denies knowing about this. everybody's making all of these leap, based on nothing, on -- on just -- to surmise, it's hypothesis and guesswork. all the facts have zero, zero connection with any political appointee, within the obama administration. i know it looks -- on the face of it, the irs going after tea party. that's unsubstantiated. >> eric: is it unsubstantiated? >> notice. it is not unsubstantiated. there is going to be an inspector general's report. and we know that some of the facts of that report are going to come out in the media reports. it is true that the groups that the irs targeted groups that had the word patriot and they changed it when they found out about it to educate voters on the constitution, the bill of rights. that's undisputable. there was a culture at the irs that the people thought that this was okay. if this was the aclu or liberal group, president obama probably wou

former commissioner doug shulman is giving testimony. he's answering questions from the house committee. about an hour ago, learner gave opening re, ma and said she's proud of her work -- remarks and said she's proud of her work in government. >> i've not done anything wrong. i've not broken any laws. i have not violated any irs rules or regulations and i have not provided false information to this or any other congressional hearing. >> reporter: members of the committee wanted to question learner. they say she's the key witness. an audit shows she became aware of the targeting of the conservative groups and didn't stop it. she pled the fifth and was dismissed and then doug shulman was in the spotlight. >> did you report up to anyone else in your chain? >> i had some of the facts, not all of the facts. i had no idea of the scope and severity. >> reporter: shulman is efitting for the second time -- is testifying for the second time. he told a senate committee yesterday he has never lied to congress. live in washington, kyla campbell, ktvu

you said you really hit on, carol, talking about the fact that doug shulman, head of the irs during allsaid he didn't know about it, one of the questions that won't be answered is why, and that, of course, goes to lois lerner. why didn't you tell anybody or at least the commissioner, when you found out about this two years ago, and what that does speak to is potentially taking the politics aside here, the real heart of the mess here, which is a real bureaucratic mess. people think of bureaucracy and can't even imagine how kind of ugly it is. this is exposing the underbelly of bureaucracy and kind of the ultimate mess in that people apparently in this group, in this division, tax exempt division in cincinnati, ohio, malicious or not, they didn't have any kind of guidance from superiors and that is lois lerner and that is taxpayer dollars not being spent well. >> the question not only is it a bureaucratic mess, but also is it a political mess? don't forget, in the heat of a re-election campaign, with president obama, and some republicans are asking the question more conspiratorially. is t

forminger irs petitioner who preceded doug shulman emerson.e in 2012 to talk about how the irs might be enforcing new tax regulations we are going to face under obama care the new taxes we are going to pay. many of us under obama care? he was talking about the need for the irs to be and to appear independent of the white house. here is how he put it. great deal of independence from other agencies. i worry direct participation of the service in a major nontax administration initiative has the potential to erode the historic independence of the service. and let me be clear here, i have nothing but the highest regard for commissioner shulman and his team. i'm not suggesting i have seen things but i just think when you bring a service in closer to the white house and to other agencying agencies you run the risk of eroding that independence. >> megyn: shulman went 159 times and that guy we just saw went once? >> once. and by comparison i believe that the director of the fbi, robert mueller went maybe five times over that same period. a scant number

doug shulman, he was the bush appointee.the acting commissioner. >> i'm very sorry this happened while i was at the internal revenue service. >> he sounds like an accountant. >> one, one, one, one, one -- >> stephanie: i have been told i'm going to have to move to storage room b. >> i only thing in binary. >> we're going to need to move you downstairs into storage b. we have some new people coming in. and we need all the space we can get. >> stephanie: yes, he was the bush appointee. pardon me. he was in charge while this was going on. when he read the ag report last month he was dismaid by the mismanagement of the program. who's watch could this have hand on? hum? oh, me. >> the president didn't help matters by apologizing so profusely. >> stephanie: yeah but i think max baucus nailed it. there needs to be better guidelines on both sides. it's just like you said jim, the explosion was in these tea party groups. >> and they need to change the wording back to -- >> stephanie: but they are not doing social welfare. >> yeah. >>

today, former irs chief doug shulman testified before the senate but predictably he doesn't know anything about targeting conservatives. >> how did this happen? >> mr. chairman, i can't say -- i can't say that i know that answer. i have now had the benefit of reading the report. and that's, you know, the full accounting of facts that i have at this point and so i -- i don't think can i answer that question. >> i don't know. nobody, nobody can answer any questions. do you sense a pattern here? if you are a fair minded person, the obama administration is becoming a frustrating experience, is it not just tell us what happened, mr. president. stop dancing around. we don't need a replay of watergate. >> this is not watergate but there are some people in the administration who have acted as if they want to be nixonian. and that's a very big problem. >> bill: yes, it's big problem. mr. president let's go bulworth tell us the truth. that's the memo. now interesting information on the irs story. as you know president obama said he learned about the scandal on may 10th. white house council kathryn

when you ask about partisan influence, doug shulman he is a republican. >> eric: great discussion.we have to go to a break. up next scandals plaguing his administration>g(h the president attempted to distract the american people of all things guantanamo bay. we're not taking the bait and neither is rand paul will be joining us. new details emerging about the justice department's unprecedented efforts to spy on james rosen. this new information will leave you stunned. don't g uh-oh! guess what day it is?? guess what day it is! huh...anybody? julie! hey...guess what day it is?? ah come on, i know you can hear me. mike mike mike mike mike... what day is it mike? ha ha ha ha ha ha! leslie, guess what today is? it's hump day. whoot whoot! ronny, how happy are folks who save hundreds of dollars switching to geico? i'd say happier than a camel on wednesday. hump day!!! yay!! get happy. get geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. ♪ there you go. come on, let's play! [ male announcer ] there's an easier way to protect your dog from dangerous parasites. good boy. fetch

the only named interim commissioner last november following the resignation of bush-appointee doug shulman headed the organization during these alleged practices. >> if you've got the irs operating in anything less than a neutral nonpartisan way then that's outrageous, and it's contrary to our traditions, and people have to be held accountable and it's got to be fixed. >> john: if you thought that benghazi was going to be around for a long time, hold on for irs gate. thank you for staying with us for this interesting day for this administration. michael, let me continue with you at this time. some conservative friends say this scandal is bigger than benghazi watergate and iran contra-combined. what are your thoughts on that. >> it's more easily understandable by members of the public. people understand how the tax system is supposed to work along these lines whereas benghazi is pretty remote to a lot of people, and a lot of people have not gotten that interested in it yet. i think, and i really think and i certainly hope that the administration's fingerprints are going to be nowhere near t

these numbers are downright scary, especially since doug shulman tried to downplay why he visited theof lawmakers. remember this? >> you sure you didn't talk to anyone at the white house about this issue, mr. shulman? >> about singling out conservative groups for scrutiny? >> that's what we're talk about, isn't it? >> i don't remember that -- >> you sure you didn't bring it up with anybody at the white house? >> not to my memory. >> there might be many memories you might be at the white house. would be some of the reasons you might be at the white house? >> the easter egg roll with my kids. >> well -- >> questions, about the admability of tax policy they were taking of of. >> sean: that's a lot of3+vuñ.úr egg hunts. tucker? >> we compared white house visitor logs and compared them. turns out 157 visits during the obama administration by shulman. we compared that to visits by secretaries, in the obama administration. he outstripped all of them. the obama administrationjf is t entirely transparent about who visits the white house and when. not all visits are not logged actually, outra

are conservatives going to buy this that this was an attempt to streamline the process and that doug shulmanknow the truth about what was going on when he testified last year to congress? >> actually, here is a bush appointment or obama appointment it's wrong. do you really think the irs is going to streamline anything? to talk about anything streamlined or simplified is wrong. here is the disturbing thing. obviously they were targeted and they apologized for something they did and then they're trying to blame lower level staffers. well, what is it? are you inept that you don't know what they're doing or were you part of it that now they're saying of course, the upper level agents, the irs representativeknow about it. so there is lying going on already it sounds like and i do think there should be an investigation. it looks like the republicans probably will push forward for that and should. >> rick: yesterday jay carney said that while these actions were inappropriate, and that they should be investigated, he seemed content with the inspector general's investigation that i guess we're going

when you ask about partisan influence, doug shulman he is a republican. >> eric: great discussion.we have to go to a break. up next scandals plaguing his administration>g(h the president attempted to distract the american people of all things guantanamo bay. we're not taking the bait and neither is rand paul will be joining us. new details emerging about the justice department's unprecedented efforts to spy on james rosen. this new information will leave you stunned. don't go anywhere. 6. with the spark cash card from capital one... boris earns unlimited rewards for his small business. can i get the smith contract, ease? thank you. that's three new paper shredders. [ boris ] put 'em on my spark card. [ garth ] boris' small business earns 2% cash back on every pchase every day. great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. read back the chicken's testimony, please. "buk, buk, bukka!" [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase every day. told you i'd get half. what's in your walle ♪ t

you have former irs commissioner doug shulman and them saying they knew last year and didn't disclose it. i don't think the people think that was the right thing. i think the fact that the white house counsel's office knew this in april of this year, didn't tell the president about it. the white house said we didn't find out until may 10th when lois lerner went in front of the aba conference and dropped the bomb, that's a big mistake. the president of the united states should have been aware of it and made aware sooner. obviously they were trying to keep a lot of information from coming out until it absolutely was going to come out. when the inspectors general's report was going to be released, then they were forced to act. >> it is getting weirder and weirder. senator, thank you very much. good seeing you again. >> thanks, neil. you, too. >>> meanwhile, we're still trying to keep this one together. is this the making of the latest terror attack? in london, they are thinking so. no less than the prime minister of england is cutting short a trip to france to get heem and get to the bot

former irs commissioner doug shulman says he never spoke to anyone in the obama administration aboutthe white house 157 times. that's way, way moreç than any other cabinet member. of course, he would need to meet with white house staffers about rolling out obamacare, but even hss secretary kathleen so we'll bous visited a third less. karl rove is still with us. karl, your thoughts about these numbers? should we be suspicious or curious? >> we should be very curious and very suspicious. curious because that's an odd number of times. i was in the white house for nearly seven years. mark erey etson, he went to the j8-[ irs commissioner. it ought to raise warning flags off the bat. this is an independent agency that should have distance from the white house. it should be distant from the white house. we know what's happened before when the white house has gotten too close to the irs, and the irs has gotten too close to the white#fpn:u". house.ç when mr. shulman was asked in front of congress, at the time they knew about 118 appearances at the white house he respond e was there forç an

if you go up higher to the testimony and the top of the agency, you get on doug shulman who is a republican to the top, it is a republican. there is a political glass ceiling on these scandals. that doesn't mean they should not be investigated but it does mean that a fairç reading of t facts, doesn't implicate the white house. we have to look at them substantively. not only tools to exploit. the american public has seen this before. it they will keep a close eye. if the hand is overplayed, it will be clear. >> you got me. >> i was going to say, a fair reading of the facts is not really their specialty. i wish they would be more creative. how many times have we heard something is watergate? at least come up with another analogy. it is so great having you sitting with us. ar i says he will give us his seat any time for you. >> i wish i knew that of. >> i am still using steve's mug. no, i'm not. >> excellent. >>> and be sure to watch up with steve kornacki every saturday and sunday morning. part of the reason we had room for kornacki is because s.e. is traveling to l.a. to be on realtime with

a bush appointee, doug shulman, was, and miller was fired. there's no two ways about it. they fired him. the amazing part of this is, lois lerner, she's the one who was in the loop. she's the one who bungled this. the irs confirmed to me tonight she has not resigned. that is absolutely appalling, and i will be very surprised if 24 hours from now ms. lerner has not resigned. if she hasn't, i think that would be very dishonorable of her. >> and you say that because as far as we know from the i.g. report, reporting that's come out, the furthest up this really went was to lerner. she was the furthest up in the chain who really knew what was going on as it was playing out. >> that's correct. and lerner also made misleading statements last friday to reporters and the conversation i was on where she tried to slip away. i said, no, you stay and finish answering our questions. she said she learned of this from news reports. the report makes it clear, that's not true. and i don't see how you can lead this organization having made a false statement like that, and on top of that, it'

leaving all the rancor in the room to fall on the bush appointed former head of the irs, doug shulmano led the agency when the targeting took place. and he found no quarter with either party. >> when you learned that there was a list, you did not nothing. you did nothing. you abdicated your responsibility. >> targeting of groups who came into existence because they opposed the affordable care act, and you never brought it up in any of those conversations in all those visits to the white house. >> what letter grade would you fwif yourself in your tenure? >> i'm not going to grade myself. >> you're the head of this agency and you're not asking questions? shame on you. >> they're screwed. some are still screwed today, is that correct? a term of art. >> a term of art, indeed. joining us from washington democratic strategist julian epstein. former house counsel and former staff director of the oversight committee. lehigh university professor james pettersso peterson. julian, as you know, republicans are champing at the bit to tie this irs mess to the president. some are seizing on ms. lern