dr. bradford smart. we don't learn how to interview as entrepreneurs and businesspeople. this takes the interviewing process to a completely different place. it's a little bit more uncomfortable. you get a lot more insight. so someone has to really want to work for your company to get through this process and you get a lot more insights before they ever make that commitment. >> i think that's a good point. also, ben, you have to hire people who you're willing to learn from, right, because -- i mean, he's taken the first step, which is admitting he's not a good manager himself, but is he open-minded enough to listen to what others say? >> which leads exactly to my point which is you have to hire people smarter than you. there's a second point to that, you have to be able to check your ego at the tour. the greatest entrepreneurs are able to review the smart people. and allow them to do their thing. allow them to do the work that they do best. and if you're not an experienced manager, you hire these people and you listen to them and you learn from them and you check your ego

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