dr. caroline janney: absolutely. edward ayers: i heard a story and ask what time a question that the panel before us was asked, what if lincoln had not been assassinated? and he said he thinks it would've slowed the civil rights movement because they wouldn't have been a 14th and 15th amendment because it wouldn't have had the resistance that the white north was willing to overcome that fatigue to make it radical. an interesting thought that if -- if you don't have a 14th amendment, you don't have a foundation for this overwrites movement that follows. i think she made a right point that it is not such a retreat as they are driven from the field in some ways. the white south actually wins reconstruction through military force. through the ku klux klan and riots and those kind of things i think it is -- it is -- >> and andrew johnson gave them a little notch. if they left it up to andrew johnson, there would be no -- >> it would have taken a real military operation to force reconstruction, and there would have been no

dr. caroline janney: and we like the story of the underdogs right? we like the story of the underdogs who are struggling and we can read so much into the confederate stories. and epic tales like "gone with the wind" certainly after that charm and the romance of war. >> please. >> out just going to say, i think there is a resonance to the mythology -- well, the mythology around the confederacy with the revolutionary war, we just sort of a founding myth right? chair holzer: i think some of the northern interest is folded into a lincoln interest. but i think -- one of the problems in civil war memory was the movement in the early 20th century and onto the civil rights movement to reinterpret the emancipation proclamation. and perhaps be more critical of its limitations than celebratory of its revolutionary aspect. i think we have begun to come out of that interpretation with the cisco tenniel of the proclamation and realizing its limitations more as tactical than as philosophical. i think that has would've helped create a more of a rainbow of appreciati

dr. caroline janney: and we like the story of the underdogs right?like the story of the underdogs who are struggling and we can read so much into the confederate stories. and epic tales like "gone with the wind" certainly after that charm and the romance of war. >> please. >> out just going to say, i think there is a resonance to the mythology -- well, the mythology around the confederacy with the revolutionary war, we just sort of a founding myth right? chair holzer: i think some of the northern interest is folded into a lincoln interest. but i think -- one of the problems in civil war memory was the movement in the early 20th century and onto the civil rights movement to reinterpret the emancipation proclamation. and perhaps be more critical of its limitations than celebratory of its revolutionary aspect. i think we have begun to come out of that interpretation with the cisco tenniel of the proclamation and realizing its limitations more as tactical than as philosophical. i think that has would've helped create a more of a rainbow of appreciation o