dr. vincent di maio. >> reporter: of course. the lights on behind me, this is a see quested jury so they are getting as much done as fast as they can and accomplished so much with the witness you just talked about. dr. vincent di maio. heard of him? probably. he's like the grand dad of pathology, he was the medical examiner in beaux county in texas and made incredible arguments, so many points the prosecution made. listen to the first part, he goes after what the prosecution said. first of all, if george zimmerman tried to put out trayvon von martin's hands after she hot him, why were the hands under the body f. george zimmerman said trayvon mapp martin said you got me, how is that possible after being shot in the heart? listen to his explanation. >> even if i, right now, reached across, put my hand through your chest, grabbed your heart and ripped it out, you could stand there and talk to me for 10 to 15 seconds or walk over to me, because the thing that's controlling your move the and ability to speak is the brain, and that ha

dr. di maio who is a phenomenal witness and i think that that was a -- a very good day for the defense. > maio and his testimony, as you say, he's incredible imminent, very world renowned and spoke in a language that would be extremely effective to a jury. if you have ordinary people sitting there listening to this guy, you found him really credible i would think. >> he is credible. i didn't get to see all of it but what i did see is rational. it made sense, he was responsive. intelligent, articulate compared to the state examiner who was horrendous. >> that is true. this is what the prosecutor challenged him that trayvon placed his hand on his nose and mouth. let's look at this. >> the photograph taken at the scene. >> yes. >> i'm sorry, of the defendant i apologize where he has blood there, right? >> right. >> okay. i put my hand over that, right? >> okay. >> what do you expect my hand to have on it? >> blood. >> you see, i thought that, too, was a big moment because i don't understand why in this new world of dna where you can dredge people out of rivers and still find dna on them and

dr. vincent di maio. the jury was not called into the court until 10:30 this morning so the defense could hear arguments about whether an animated depiction of george zimmerman describing the shooting was allowed to be seen. let's go now to msnbc's craig melvin who has been following the trial in sanford. craig, we just had via video link the testimony of elloise dilligard, who was a resident in the twin lakes area and knew george zimmerman as a member of neighborhood watch. >> reporter: yeah, and martin, what you just said is about all we've gotten so far out of elloise dilligard, again, a residents there in the same gated condo complex as george zimmerman. she is testifying via facetime because she is under the weather. again, at this point not exactly sure how her testimony is going to fit into the larger defense strategy here, but elloise dilligard, she's been on the stand now for about 5 or 10 minutes. we also found out just before she began to testify, martin, that according to mark o'mara, she is g

dr. vincent di marx -- maio. he is the defense's first witness of the day. >> craig melvin reporting outside the courthouse in sanford and we will take you inside the courthouse now. this is the forensic pathologist, the gunshot expert, dr. di maio. >> 1981 when you began your work at the bexar county medical examiner's office, were you able to work as a consultant privately in other cases outside bexar county? >> yes, sir. >> what kind of work would you do in that regard? >> mostly civil cases and then a few criminal cases. outside bexar county, i could testify for the defense for prosecution. i did -- you don't do many private criminal cases, such as like what i'm doing now. i'd run about, you know, two to four a year at the most. >> you have been working as a consultant since the beginning of 2007 then, if i've done the math correctly. i'm sorry. exclusively as a -- >> right, since january of 2007. >> in other words, you've been in private practice as a consultant since january of 2007? >> yes. >> and the majo

dr. di maio had testified. here it is. >> you can't testify as to who threw the first punch. >> that's correct, sir. >> in fact, you can't really testify whether there was a first punch thrown. >> that's correct, sir. >> and you can't say whether it was trayvon martin defending himself or george zimmerman defending himself, in terms of when this first started? >> when it first started? that's correct, sir. >> so paul henderson, he could not establish, could not offer expert testimony as to whom the initiator was, but he did offer pretty compelling testimony in terms of how the final act was committed. do you disagree with that? >> i don't disagree. look, this was a good witness for the defense, and he was very credible and informative it almost felt like a class in forensics when he was explaining his thoughts and his ideas about what he knew. an it was quiet in the courtroom. everyone was paying attention. thought the prosecution did an outstanding job of standing up and getting that same witness to admit that

dr. di maio? >> no, not even close. honestly, the prosecution stood up there and said, you can't say who threw the first punch. sadly, that's not the defense's burden. they can't say who threw the first punch. the only evidence they have of who threw the first punch was the doctor. the prosecution gets up and said, well, it would be consistent with trayvon standing up and zimmerman standing up and george shooting him, and the doctor said, no, that's not true. the clothing would be hanging down and it would not be consistent. immediately they said, well, it would be consistent with trayvon backing away. is there any theory who may have a theory and they're supposed to have a theory. the defense has a theory that's being supported by forensic evidence, and the prosecution is in the role the defense is usually in, trying to throw up things and make it stick. >>> they're changing tactics. they've moved from trying to make abortion is. but supporters are fighting back. plus, we all know how sun ma bin laud laud. lfs a time w

dr. di maio under examination by the prosecution. >> i'm saying that the physical evidence is consistent with mr. martin being over mr. zimmerman. >> and is it not also consistent with mr. martin's pulling away from zimmerman on the ground, and you would have the same angle. he is pulling away, and zimmerman is shooting him at that time? >> yes. >> let me make sure, i understand what you're saying. that you can hit somebody and not leave any bruising on your knuckles, is that correct? >> that is correct, sir. >> in other words, george zimmerman could have hit trayvon martin and not leave any bruising on his knuckles. >> that is correct, sir. >> a photograph at the scene, i apologize, you have blood there. i put the hand over that, right? >> okay, yes. >> what do you expect my hand to have on it? >> blood. >> joining me now, msnbc legal analyst, lisa bloom, and a former homicide prosecutor. lisa bloom, the big testimony of the day, what is your overall assessment of how that went in? >> i think it went in very well for the defense because the prosecution didn't go for the jugular. >> what

dr. di maio testify about the specifics of this.nd both sides have testified about how far the gun was from trayvon martin. this testimony is key. i think the jurors know that, so they'll be honed in on that. >> danny cevallos, ten seconds. same question. >> this is always riveting testimony and it's really going to be like always, a battle of the experts. jury ultimately decides. >> amen to that. well, this is a great expert. let's continue to listen to his direct examination and see where they're going first with what they need out of this witness. vincent di maio, m.e. >> doctor di maio, let's turn to the work that uh yo did specifically in this case. >> yes, sir? >> would you describe the materials that you have received for review in this case, and if you have notes, reflecting some of that information, that you want to refer to, you're welcome to do that. copies have been provided to the state, but just feel free to use your notes if you wish. >> yes, sir. the material they reviewed were scene photos taken by the police and th

dr. di maio.nt in the case today. >> i'm saying that the physical evidence is consistent with mr. martin being over mr. zimmerman. >> and is it not also consistent with mr. martin pulling away from zimmerman on the ground and you would have the same angle, he's pulling away and zimmerman shooting him at that time? >> yes. >> jean, how big of a deal is it for prosecutors to get a defense witness to concede, especially a defense witness as experienced as di maio to concede that george zimmerman may have been on top when trayvon martin was shot or that trayvon martin was pulling away, trying to get away? it seems like basically the prosecutor got di maio to say that this theory might be consistent and this theory also might be consistent. >> right. it's a very big deal for the prosecutor to be able to get the defense expert to concede to a point. and also i think it allowed the jury and those of us sitting in the courtroom to listen to what the prosecution's theory is going to be. we now know that th

dr. di maio. i want to play something he said. he was clearly a much more confident witness than the medical examiner who testified for the prosecution who had a note in front of him, didn't seem to know much about the case and changing opinions. i want to play some of what dr. di maio said today. >> if you pulled my heart out now i could just keep talking and talking and talking for -- and just talking and talking and talking without a heart? >> that's right. >> okay -- >> for 15 seconds or so. >> right. it's between 10 and 15 seconds. it's depending on the oxygen supply to the head, and that's why some of the swat people will prefer shooting somebody in the head. >> right. >> if it's a situation where the person has a gun on somebody else. >> okay. now even though my heart is gone, i would still feel pain or would i not? >> yeah, you would still feel pain. >> is there this true? i find this fascinating that you can actually live for 15 seconds or speak for 15 seconds with your heart ripped out? >> when the heart stops beating, y

dr. di maio was most effective in his cross-examination. he was calm, he understood the questions. he didn't give an answer when questions seemed to implicate a different answer. he says he acted in self-defense and pleaded not guilty to second degree murder. and on the admissibility of text messages from trayvon martin's phone as well as a ruling on a 3d animation are expected this morning. arguments about them grew heated late into the night. mara, back to you. >> sarah, thanks so much. >>> turning now to business, to nbc's seema mody has business. >> good morning. oil is at an industry report where the incompetent be dus stri says it dropped. they're cracking down on debt collection practices. laws governing how companies can go after consumers behind on their bills don't apply to firms trying to recoup caps directly to people. regulators says bank and department stores can hound people with phone calls. the senate holds a hearing on smithfield foods taken over by a chinese company. they plan to ask them about food safety and ownership issues. >> seema, thank you for that. south

dr. di maio? >> i think so.ness like, this a world renowned expert on gunshot wounds, you don't cross-examine that type of witness on his credentials because you can't. what you do is you change the narrative. that's what this prosecution did. the defense wants this case to be about who's yelling and who's on top because their case is about self-defense, about justifiable force. now of course the prosecution's case is about second degree murder. their case is about who started this fight because if george zimmerman started the fight, then bottom line is, you know, self-defense becomes a bit trickier for him because he's got to meet other prongs. he can't just say, oh, i shot in self-defense. that's what the prosecution did coming right out of the game. he said you're not testifying about who threw the first punch, right? dr. di maio said no. you're no testifying about who started the fight? no. they also got him to concede a couple of points that will be helpful. he said he doesn't trust eyewitness testimony bec

dr. di maio's testimony, saying he was reasonably in fear of danger.ular football has been back and forth across the field so many times i'm not sure the jury is even going to be able to sort out who they think was the screaming one. >> and lisa, the defense will presumably want to stay on the fight as much as they possibly can. because it is only within the moments, whatever that is, minutes of that fight that the justification for homicide can exist. >> yes, here is the best defense argument, you know what? george zimmerman probably did make terrible assumptions of trayvon martin, he probably did profile him. that was a big mistake, he shouldn't have done that. but it was not illegal. he is not on trial for making assumptions and profiling. he got out of the car, he followed, but then he was assaulted and was attacked. and then they will get into the physical fight and all the legal and medical testimony to support that. i hope the testimony on rebuttal shows that he was wearing a baggy t-shirt, that the outer sweatshirt would have been even further

dr. di maio answered that. dr. di maio not rebutted answered that question clearly.ber he said because trayvon martin at that time was on top and took his jacket. that's why the gunshot was two to four inches away, that's why -- >> this is the problem, piers -- >> this is -- >> this is exactly the problem. everything is compelling. the problem is when everything is compelling, that's reasonable doubt. >> it is. >> if the prosecution left a closing and we're still saying, well, the defense has a compelling argument and haven't spoken yet, that's not a good sign for the prosecution. >> let me bring in richard because you're a jury expert. this jury, they have the weight of the world shoulders watching here. it's not just any old trial. a trial leading the news bulletins in america now, network and cable. this is the biggest deal they will ever have to face. what are they thinking tonight? what do you think their thinking will be over the next couple days? the truth is that verdicts are rarely just about evidence or the law. they are about human judgment, and both of th

dr. di maio. the very impressive, distinguished doctor about this photograph the defense keeps berating? recall what i did? i said, what do you expect? blood. i'm going to show you the photographs. not just at the medical examiner's because they're s saying, oh, that dr. bao, he's incompete incompetent. he didn't know what he was doing. i'm going to show you the photographs of the scene. which show what? no blood on his hands. they'll say, oh, it was raining that night. i guess the blood on the defendant's head just stuck there, right? on the victim it just kind of vanished. can't have it both -- can't have it like that. see, because what's important is the defendant in an attempt to convince the police that he was really shooting this man, this boy, in self-defense, he had to exaggerate what happened. that's why he had to at some point say, oh- thre, he was threatening me. it was almost like the levels of fear escalated. we'll talk about that. how he was then -- originally he hit him. he got him

dr. di maio. we may hear this witness come back for some additional testimony.eard rumblings about ben crump being called by the defense. perhaps another expert. in my sense because the defense had done fairly well i think i should just cut their losses and not bring anyone up. mark o'mara said he believed he would rest today so perhaps this will be the end of the defense case. >> if i could, i think there's two areas that we know that are still looming out there. one is george zimmerman's father who has been kept out. there's a good chance we might see him and the judge has allowed in the toxicology with the marijuana. i think that will be dropped. the defense will want to try to end this on a strong note. they lost their best chance with dr. di maio so they have to find something to end it strong and then allows that tha to be the lasting impression. >> what do you make of the fact of the text messages will not be allowed in the proceedings? does that make much of a difference? >> absolutely for the defense. the defense in some way wants to trash the victim wh

dr. di maio, the last two photographs that were shown -- >> yes. >> do you remember the ones that were shown yeah -- i'm sorry, what? >> may i approach the witness? doesn't that show that the sweatshirt is up? >> yeah, but it's been pulled up. >> right. and if it's at the scene while they're transporting the body and the body comes to it the medical examiner's office with their sweatshirt down, wouldn't that absorb the blood there? >> may i see the other photograph? >> sure. >> since it's not here, it's been removed, so it's been pulled off. if you're asking me could it have wiped the blood off as it was being pulled off, sure. >> in other words, you would expect the blood in the sweatshirt, correct? >> right. >> now, you were asked a bunch of questions by mr. west. do you agree mr. west testifying is not evidence, correct? >> yes, sir. >> okay. and would you use mr. west's statements to form your opinion? >> no, sir. i use the autopsy report and the laboratory reports. >> and the autopsy report, that was the one you mentioned prepared by dr. bao. >> and the photographs plus the firearms rep

dr. di maio. he covered everything by both medical examiners, not only the distance between the muzzle of the gun and the clothing and the body. he also talked about time of death, consciousness and pain, and touched upon all the issues involving the trauma to the head. >> you mention this and i want to play this for the viewers who may not have seen the testimony. george zimmerman said all along that trayvon martin spoke even after he was shot. is that each possible? there was testimony about that today, even if your heart has been ripped out. let's listen. >> if you pulled my heart out now i could keep talking and talking and talking? and just talking and talking without a heart? >> that's right. >> okay. 15 seconds or so? >> right. it's between 10 and 15 seconds, it's dependent on oxygen supply to the head that's why some of the s.w.a.t. people will prefer shooting somebody in the head if it's situation where the person has a gun on somebody else. >> even though my heart is gone, i would feel s

dr. di maio. they're trying to set up a hypothesis and trayvon martin was trying to extracate.the defense's job to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. now they are trying to show holes in the defense theory knowing there's no way the jury will believe it was george zimmerman on top. >> the only thing it seems to me with my very own trained eye is they are able to illicit isn't it possible he could have been treating. here is the irrefutable evidence he was retreating. >> maybe i think so, couldn't have. >> that's not a standard of proof in any criminal case. >> i thought i was crazy. >> you're seeing a transition. the state has gone back and said we're losing on this. we have to change that. >> your former prosecutor, did you see this coming. let's remind anybody out there who doesn't know defense attorneys don't have to give all of their stuff away to prosecutors. >> prosecutors have to give all of their stuff away to the defense attorneys. there's not like that reverse discovery process. >> in florida there is. florida is. >> how could the prosecutors not have seen this comin

dr. di maio, has done this whole life. came in and gave you some really good information about everything having to do with gunshots. really good because he failed and refused to go beyond gunshots even when -- i think we tried to take him a little bit. he said, no. the state tried to take him a little bit. he said no. i'm good at what i'm good at but i'm only going to talk about what i'm the good at and what he is good at is gunshot wounds and suggesting that it made perfect sense that the can in the jacket would do what it did. does it make anything less than perfect sense as to what happen happened? it's in there and he is leaning over and his loose billowing shirt falls forward and he gets shot and it's contact to the fabric. it is not pressed against the chest. i think that little play in opening statement has been dismissed. and it was four inches from his chest. as it turns out, the forensic evidence is fairly significant because it completely supports the contention that mr. zimmerman was on the bottom, trayvon mar

dr. vincent di maio.ic evidence is consistent with the fatal shooting. >> the wound itself by the gap, by the powder tattooing in the face of a contact of the clothing indicates that this is consistent with mr. zimmerman's account that he -- that mr. martin was over him leaning forward at the time he was shot. >> forensic pathologist dr. vincent di maio joins us. nice to see you, sir. >> nice o to see you. >> as i understand it, the words you used is consistent with. those are -- that's not that you are certain or probably. >> no. >> just that you can't -- what does it mean? consistent with? >> in this case it means confirmatory of mr. zimmerman's account of what happened. it confirms his account. >> is there any doubt in your mind, i mean, is it an expert opinion -- when you say confirms, do you say you have no doubt in your mind that it occurred as george zimmerman described it? >> that's correct, greta. >> is it -- when you made that determination, what did you look at? did you look at pictures or clot

dr. di maio certainly portrayed at least one alternative scenario where the defendant could have absolutely committed second-degree murder against trayvon martin just , t being mr. martin was attempting to pull back or disengage when he was shot and murdered by this defendant. moreover, to say that mr. more disputed, that the state has certainly submitted sufficient evidence and will again continue to do so in rebuttal to indicate that both the facts and theç inferences that can be drawn therefrom would support a jury verdict as to both murder and the lesser included manslaughter. >> very brief response. i would just ask that either the state or perhaps the court, if you're going to rule, identify the state's factual scenario, their theory of the case, anything for which there is -- that excludes a reasonable hypothesis of innocence of my client now that they finished their case and we finished our case. i would ask that be articulated in some form or fashion, either by the state so that you can make the ruling or by the court in your ruling that actually suggests that legally this judgmen

dr. di maio? >> let me go back to you, ken. let me ask this. -- not the prosecution, but the defense has indicate they'd may rest as early as tomorrow. in the beginning statements that we all talked about here, the prosecution said i'm going to prove a web of lies. the defense said i'm going to deal with a vicious fight that was a threat to zimmerman's life. he had to defend himself. he had no choice. if they rest tomorrow as we are seated in standing in your case tonight, has the defense proved there was a vicious fight that was a threat to zimmerman's life? >> well, interestingly, the defense doesn't have to prove anything. >> i didn't say that. >> in the opening statement, have they gone by what they said they would do in their statement? they have no burden of proof. but this is what they stated. >> that is what they stated. and you're right. that's the road map that they're laying out for the jury, that they're trying to show this vicious fight. they did say that but, remember, again, their job is to only prove reasonable

dr. vincent di maio. are talking about the evidence in this case and the gunshot that killed trayvon martin. he is a forensic pathologist and a gunshot expert. we expect the meat of that to get under way very soon but most of the morning in front of just those in the courtroom, not the jury, the question of whether or not to allow an animation, that the defense had created, that gives george zimmerman's version of events the night of that shooting. we are still waiting for a decision from the judge on that. we will take a quick broke and be back. that does it for me. i'm chris jansing. see you tomorrow and thomas roberts is up next with more live coverage of the george zimmerman trial. credit card purchases and even your bills. for seeing your spending by category or by month. so you can set a budget and get alerts when you're running low. for keeping track of your spending to see when you're coming close to the limit you've set. for seeing how pnc virtual wallet® can help you manage your money in one sim

dr. di maio, you mentioned path olg.'s start with what is pathology, and maybe more details about those other areas. >> well, pathology is a branch of medicine concerned with the study and diagnosis of diseases. anatomical pathologists generally work in hospitals. and they examine tissue that is removed from somebody. if you had a mole removed from your skin, you had a breast biopsy or some tissue, you know, from inside your body or part of an organ removed, this is examined by a pathologist, who then tells your physician, what the disease is, if it's there, the extent of the disease, and then he tells you what the diagnosis is. pathologists are generally doctors doctors. you won't contact them because your physician has contact with them. and that's an anatomical. the clinical pathologist is concerned with the laboratory studies done on patients in a hospital. if you've had a blood test, a urine test. all of those are done in clinical pathology laboratories. the forensic pathologist is concern concerned more with the ap

dr. vincent di maio. the jury was not called into the court until 10:30 this morning so the defense could hear arguments about whether an animated depiction of george zimmerman describing the shooting was allowed to be seen. let's go now to msnbc's craig melvin who has been following the trial in sanford. craig, we just had via video link the testimony of elloise dilligard, who was a resident in the twin lakes area and knew george zimmerman as a member of neighborhood watch. >> reporter: yeah, and martin, what you just said is about all we've gotten so far out

dr. di maio, a very distinguished doctor about this photograph the defendant keeps parading. do you recall what i did? what do you expect? blood. i will show you the photographs. not just of the medical examiner say no that dr. bao, he was incompetent. he didn't know what he was doing. i will show you the photographs at the scene that will show what? no blood on his hands. oh, it was raining that night. wow. i guess the blood on the defendant's head just stuck there, right? but on the victim, it kind of vanished? can't have it like that. what's important is the defendant in attempt to convince the police he was really shooting this man, this boy in self-defense, he had to exaggerate what happened. that's why he had to at some point say, oh, he he was threatening me, almost like the levels of fear escalated. we'll talk about that how then originally he hit him and got him on the go around and then there was a struggle, and then he got the upper hand, and then, let's see. it got worse and then he threatened to kill him and then he put his hand over his mouth suffocating him and

dr. vincent di maio took the stand. after being presented with evidence by the defense, di maio reached this conclusion. >> if you lean over somebody, you'll notice that the clothing tends to fall away from the chest. if, instead, you're lying on your back, and somebody shoots you, the clothing is going to be against your chest. >> reporter: di maio told jurors zimmerman's account that trayvon martin was on top of him is consistent with the evidence he examine. it's because of the spray pattern around the bullet wound, grains of powder that hit the skin, di maio determined the muzzle was two to four inches away from the skin. he also concluded martin may have been alive one to three minutes after the shooting. the prosecution got di maio to concede the scenario could have been different. >> i'm saying that the physical evidence is consistent with mr. martin being over mr. zimmerman. >> is it not also consistent with mr. martin pulling away zimmerman on the ground? and you would have the same angle, he's pulling away, an

dr. di maio there were trees back there. struggle at some point near those trees. >> my understanding what you were saying is the trees were on the ground. >> i apologize. >> i saw the pictures and i saw the vertical trees. >> that's a possibility, correct? some of the bruising. >> you could have one of the injuries from bumping against a tree. that is correct. >> and also some of the injuries that you described to the defendant, george zimmerman, could be from rolling around on the concrete and hitting the concrete as struggling and fighting. >> impact on the concrete. >> that is consistent with what you are saying, impacting the concrete. is that correct? i was curious what you mentioned about trayvon martin that you mentioned you described the injury to his left hand. what did you call it? >> abrasion. >> you were agreeing with that assessment, correct? >> he called it so i have to go with it. >> you saw the photograph, didn't you? >> yeah. i'm not sure if i did or not. >> let's assume -- i can show it to you if you want.

dr. di maio. a lack of evidence is generally not evidence. >> craig melvin has been following the story for us in sanford. i wonder if you could take us into the courtroom and describe the jury's reaction to what they have heard for over two hours from the prosecution. >> reporter: martin, we've been told the jury was quite engaged, as you might imagine. there was not as much note taking going on during the closing as we saw through jot the trial when certain witnesses were called, based on the eyes and ears inside the courtroom, the jurors for the most part really hanging on most of what mr. de la rionda was saying. he was stoic, by and large, for the most part, but toward the end, especially as the state's attorney became more animated there were several points when he started to look down, at times even shaking his head. we should note that the courtroom itself was perhaps the most parked it's been during any point of the trial. george skipper man's parents, trayvon martin's parents were both i

dr. di maio did an excellent job. i think they're very close to an acquittal. agree manslaughter might be a problem for them, which is why they've tried so vigorously to prevent an instruction on that charge. they've tried to emphasize where self-defense begins. i think they're wrong but they're emphasizing when these two get into some type of alter kags and they're trying to minimize the effect or the impact of what george zimmerman did to reach the point where they had an altercation. i think they're going to say he brings the responsibility of bringing a gun to the situation, disobeying the police, disobeying the homeowner's association. they've done a very good job and they're close to an acquittal. >> do you think he's going to be acquitted or found guilty of perhaps manslaughter? >> i think there's a possibility of manslaughter because of the way this thing began and because of what i just said. zimmerman chose to bring a gun with him, zimmerman chose to ignore the police, zimmerman has been caught in some inconsistency. but because the defense has done s