dr. howard thurman. >> one of the reasons that people don't know him is that dr. urman spent a lot of his time initially with morehouse, howard university. when he came over here, the church was totally independent, which means that you have no connections with other national structures. >> i see. >> it's in the methodist church, baptist church, you go to conventions, you word spreads about a who you are and so son. that did not happen with him because he was so isolated. when he left the church in 1963 to go to boston unfortunate, he was in a predominantly white institution. in terms of black community, there was not as much information about him as there should have been. i think in the white community, you know, you are talking about race criminal, he was the author of 22 books. >> that's the reap he was not as well-known. >> the church is integrated? >> yes. >> interracial, interdenominational, interreligious. >> yes. >> it was founded, as you said, in 1944. it was -- there was a white love or, dr. fiesk who was trying to bring people together within racial lin