dr. mulvenon. those companies you mentioned that are now complaining are the same companies that really did the heavy lifting to push the npr through the united states senate and house of representatives. more on that later perhaps. let me ask, start with dr. mulvenon on this question. i spent a lot of my time, my state makes more than any other, makes more things, more products in terms of net worth than any state but california and texas, states much larger from aerospace to autos to food processing to chemicals to all kinds of things, wind turbines, solar panels. i spend a lot of time on shop floors, and what you notice is in terms of innovation, they so often take place on the shop floor. so u.s. companies when we do the innovation in california's as apple brags about or ohio or anywhere else or north carolina and then the production is done overseas, automatically that innovation is happening on those shop floors in terms of process and product both. how does, how does this, how did this theft

dr. mulvenon said about stealing intellect chul property. your family can suffer back home in china. so this there is an effect of fr silences individual victims to speak up, and it then makes it hard for journalists and human rights groups to provide the documentation so the world can know the extent of the problem. >> so what do u.s. lawmakers do to help to protect these civil organizations, civil society organizations and human rights groups and all? >> i certainly believe that the work of the national endowment for democracy, my organization which is supported by an annual appropriation from the congress, is one lifeline. we give grants to human rights groups outside china who are doing their best. then they have money for server space and the ability to travel to meet each other. so some kind of offsetting of the financial cost is the very least that can be done, and that's certainly being done through my organization. there are a number of programs that the state department has done for, to help human rights defenders, and these are all worth doing even though they're at a very