dr. richardson dillworth. his late grandfather, a very popular mayor here in philadelphia. also, dr. richard beamen, author of "plain, honest men: the making of the constitution." i'll start with you, doctor. how big was the gap at the beginning of this country between the ideas we all talk about and the reality? >> obviously, the gap was huge. whether it was savely, the denial of full citizenship to women. the gap was huge, but was already narrowing by the time the 55 men gathered in philadelphia down the street from us in independence hall to try to create a nation. >> am i wrong to try to emphasize how consistent moral progression had been in trying to close that gap? >> we were talking before we came up here. i have a somewhat different take on the constitution. i think it was and even looking at those words now, sort of reenforces it for me. a very practical document. i think the phrase a more perfect union can be thought of in a number of different ways. i think arguably everyone would agree they were dealing with a highly imperfect union before under the articles of the confed