dr. wexler. >> thank you, miss robinson. and mr. ramsey, and the panel. it's good to be here again. and i also want to thank my fellow panel members for participating. thank you for the opportunity to offer my perspectives on the important issues of labor management issues. i am the executive director of the police executive research forum. i have held that position for over 20 years. you've asked me to focus my testimony today on building trust and collaboration between police executives, labor leaders and elected officials. when we talk about improving policing, the relationship between labor and management is an area that has been neglected for too long. historically, labor and management have often viewed each other with suspicion. it often has seemed that they see each other as warring factions and treat each other as the enemy. and as recent events have shown us, everyone loses when labor and management fail to work together. especially people in the community and the officers on the street

dr. wexler. it sounds a lot like what officer smith is talking about when he says take a leap of faith or do the right thing for the right reason, what he's really talking -- i think he's a little -- i think what he's really talking about is adaptive leadership. and leadership. and so what is perf doing to accentuate leadership models like officer smith on the side of management? >> probably not enough, but i think -- i think it is leadership. you know, probably the biggest challenge -- i want to pick up your question but what jim pasco's comment was, how do you change the dynamic here? i think the best way to change it is with examples. when people see the benefit. officers don't get laid off in sacramento when labor and management work together. in camden they work together and they get an agreement on a contract. when officers and management work together in prince georges county, lives get saved. when the fop and napo agree to the mandatory wearing of seat belts, lives will be saved because p