but the idea, the debate over the ideas, and coming back to duboise. he was so tower thing in his -- towering in his intellect that was everywhere. i mean, when tony morrison -- toni morrison talkses about the presence of african 'em in white literature even though no characters are named as black and no one names race as this thing, the specter of blackness haunts american literature. and duboise haunted these white folks wherever they held court on our presence. same was true for ida b. wells as an activist, the activist-scholar. so in any case, for me, that's how i dealt with this gaze issue which was essentially to use black historical figures, voice, to point out in very specific ways the ways in which white people were active agents in the moment they were living rather than abstraction traction -- ab atracks whock were in the background. -- ab a tractions who were in the background. >> i don't care about a -- [laughter] trying to speak to a white audiencen' or -- i don't care. i'm speaking to black people, young black people, and i'm documenting