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federal prosecutor for the southern district of new york and a professor at cardoza law school, and duncan levin criminal defense attorney, former manhattan prosecutor and a former federal prosecutor. great to have all of you here. it was fascinating to be inside that courtroom. as many people have reported before, when they came in, they didn't seem to make eye contact with donald trump. i had a perfect view. i was on the right side of the courtroom. i could see both rows very, very clearly. i could see where they were writing very, very clearly. i could see any reaction. there was none except the pen to paper, and so let me start with that, if i can. i got to tell you, several points there were when the majority of them were taking notes. and perhaps no more busy than when the judge guided them on the law, the offense is falsifying business records in the first degree, 34 counts. the definition of the law. he gave that to them. they seemed actually almost to be trying to write it down verbatim, and duncan, i took away from that this is a jury that is incredibly serious and understanding of the

back with me, duncan levin, renato mar attie and chris jansing.emember, donald trump has denied that this sexual encounter ever happened so when stormy daniels describes all of those details and the room, the furniture, the pajamas, where they were sitting, and telling the story consistently from a dozen years from different venues how difficult is for the defense to argue she's lying? >> i think it's going to be challenging, and candidly, i think that the defense made a bit of a mistake here by not admitting this took place. their defense is not that this didn't take place. i don't know that it matters whether it took place. the bottom line they wanted to pay a lot of money to keep this account out of the media, keep this out of the public eye. that's really donald trump's pride and hubris getting in the way of a proper defense of this case and i really think that is what gave the prosecution the leeway from the judge to get into some of these details, which i think it's obvious are embarrassing, damaging, and it's a really difficult line for the

now are kristi greenberg, former federal prosecutor and former sdny criminal deputy chief, and duncan levinet attorney for the eastern district of new york. there's a lot of legal stuff i want to get to, but first on the big picture, kristi, was it a good idea for the defense to end with bob costello? >> it was a bad idea. it chaep helped bolster michael cohen's credibility. anything that makes michael cohen smelling like a rose, you have to think that's a bad idea interest the defense, but these e-mails today oozing with slime. michael cohen testified this guy wanted to me by lawyer, but i didn't really trust him, i thought he was working for donald trump, and sure enough we get e-mails today where the e-mails are pretty explicit, we've got to make it appear as though we're not acting under the instruction of rudy giuliani or the president. like it's it in writing, and the defense knows these e-mails exist so like why in the world would you call this guy? putting aside all the antics that also happened in front of the jury where he was just blatantly disrespectful not something you would ex

joining me now is duncan levine, former assistant attorney for the eastern district of new york, and kristen. thank you both for being here. i was flabbergasted. kristi, i believe you were down there today. >> yeah. >> she says in a resigned fashion. i was flabbergasted they would make -- they would really entreat stormy daniels to revisitan the stort of sleazy moments in the hotel and then say we need a mistrial because this information has been too prejudicial. >> right, the hypocrisy of it. this is what jean merchan was saying when he denied the mistrial saying, hey, in your defense you opened the door. you said she was a liar and said this never happened. and yetth then they go into questioning and the state says, okay, now we have to go into details because that lends her story extent. and then on cross rather than maybe stay away from that and preserve this issue on appeal and saying maybe this is too prejudicial, instead they dove right in and they were getting into it. if your argument was it never happened, i'm not sure why they were pointing out so many details in this situ

joining me are anna bauer, legal fellow" correspondent and duncan levin, former assistant u.s. attorney for the eastern district of new york. thank you both for being here. anna, let me start with you. the idea that keith davidson is a celebrity extortion is, that donald trump is a victim here, how did that play in court? >> there were some fireworks today after a few days of having these documents witnesses come in. i think maybe the jury was getting a little bit bored and some there was some excitement in court but it really did not land i think the way that the defense wanted it to. one reason being that even if davidson has had extortionist plots before, they didn't even come close to proving in any sense that there was anything like that here with respect to donald trump. also, alex we had these recordings came out that even as the defense was trying to portray trump as a being left close to this, as it being removed from these deals, there were these reporting set came out in which trump was indicating that he did have some sort of knowledge, understanding of what was goi

duncan levin, chuck rosenberg still with us. we have gone over this pretty thoroughly, and if there is one thing that we heard over and over and over again, it is he lied, he's a liar, he's not to be trusted, he's the mvp of liars, gloat, the greatest liar of all time. what did you make of that emphasis of the argument and did he score at all, do you think? >> well, i think for folks like chuck and me, where we heard a lot of prosecution and defense arguments in our lifetime, this was a fairly standard defense summation, where you have sort of an amalgam of some catchy lines, like the gloat line, and the mvp line. you have some inconsistent arguments, you have some make weight arguments that don't hold up if you sort of even begin to scratch the surface, and then you have some legitimate arguments which the defense -- sorry, where the state is going to need to respond. but they're about to right after lunch have that opportunity. it was a real grab bag. i don't mean that in a disparaging way. the defense has an obligation to try

joining me now r duncan levin, former u.s. assistant attorney for the eastern district of new york and kristy greenberg, former federal prosecutor who served for over a decade in the u.s. attorney's office in the southern district of new york. thank you both for being here. i was flabbergasted. i believe you were down there today. she says with a resigned fashion. i was flabbergasted that they would really entreat stormy daniels to revisit the sleazy moments in the hotel and then say we need a mistrial because this information has been too prejudicial. >> the hypocrisy of it. this is what judge juan merchan was saying when he denied the mistrial motion. and defense, and opened the door. you said she was a liar and you said this never happened. and yet then they go into questioning and the state says, okay, now we have to go into details because that lends her story credibility. then on cross, rather than maybe stay away from that to kind of preserve this issue from appeal in saying maybe this is too prejudicial, instead, they

criminal defense attorney, former federal and manhattan prosecutor, duncan levin joins us. any chance the sentencing could be delayed? >> obviously some appellate rights he has, but it's unlikely this is going to get pushed out. trump's legal defense has been to delay, delay, delay on all of his criminal matters. up until now, this judge is not having it. hasn't had it from the beginning. he's set a very rigorous schedule. i don't think there's anything that's going to come in the way of this sentencing. i'm sure you're going to see a flurry of appeals going up to the next level, to the appellate courts in new york in the coming days, but i don't think it's likely to derail anything. the judge has unilateral power to move forward with the sentencing and he's made it clear that's what he's going to do. >> is it your view as some of the other lawyers we've talked to this hour that any prison time would be unlikely? >> well, it is a low level b felony and it's his first criminal offense. so in that regard, it's unlikely but to the extent that the legislature has said that a fe

the jury finds trump guilty is difficult to predict, according to former manchanton prosecutor duncan levin broad power to determine when inmates are sent to prison after conviction. this differs from federal court, where there is usually a waiting period between sentencing and imprisonment. it can be sent to jail right from the courtroom,” levin said. the question of where trump might serve his sentence is one of many factors that remain unanswered. the short sentence can be served at the city's two-building reicers island jail complex, which is commonly used. but they were there, they scolded carter so much at one time that he’s not pale and so on, so to speak, but still, compared to biden, he’s a rock, therefore, but, but the fact that they are now busy with this is once again speaks of how far from them the well-being of other countries' peoples, this is absolutely, by the way, their policy towards ukraine, these supplies are absolutely necessary. ukraine held out until the november elections, you know, yes, well, the question is whether the american press is getting ahead of itself, bu

we are joined by duncan levin . welcome back. are you so biased for your former colleagues that you have to say the case is going perfectly? >> they have a really difficult witness. i'm not biased, i come neutrally, i'm a defense attorney now. >> but not so biased that you have to say the case is going perfect. >> it's going well but not perfect. today may be the best example of it. the defense had a day off and got to look over the testimony michael cohen gave on tuesday. what they did with it was they landed some blows during it, and at the end of this trial both sides will go up and make an argument about michael cohen. >> before we get to closing arguments i want to zero in on you would say today you would give what kind of grade to what the defense was able to do? they don't yet have an alternative explanation to everything. they seem to raise four, six plus issues with cohen. >> they threw out a lot there. they have all sorts of theories, but they are trying to see what sticks. they have not come up with alternate theory ab

s office, duncan levin. thanks for being here. welcome to the table.ended on a high note with the prosecutors. where do you think they're going to go next? >> what they're doing right now is corroborating every piece of evidence that's come into the trial. what we're seeing is we have seen the architecture of the case. they have really started off with this conspiracy, then they moved into the falsifying business records, and now they're bringing forth their sort of more problematic witnesses, stormy daniels and michael cohen. they have laid the ground work for the testimony. christy has it right. when michael cohen testifies, he was trying to delay the payment, that tracks on to the testimony that we heard from keith davidson, stormy daniels' attorney who was saying they were trying to do everything they could to delay the payment until this access hollywood tape came out, and then the trump campaign heard there were two women out there, stormy daniels, karen mcdougal who were selling the story, and that led to this feverish, crazy pace of trying to p

duncan levin, anna bowers, thank you for your time and great wisdom on this topic. >>> we have a lot to get to tonight including ongoing attempts by republicans to whitewash january 6th and new efforts to subvert the next election. >>> but first president biden weighsen in on pro-palestinian protests across the country. jamal bowman joins me to discuss the protest and what democrats need to do. that is coming up next. d what ds need to do that is coming up next new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. hi, i'm jason. i've lost 228 pounds on golo. ♪ i think it's a great product. i don't ever want to go back to wearing a 4xl shirt or not being able to climb up stairs without taking a break. so i'm committed to golo for life. why choose a sleep number smart bed? can it keep me warm when i'm cold? wait, no, i'm always hot. sleep number does that. save 40% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed or 0% interest for 36 months. shop now at sleepnumber.com it's a beauti

joining me to decipher all of this ouro legal experts duncan levine and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. thank you for waiting for a long script that went over everybody's head other than yours. i've tried today get to the essence of what the jury needs toha folks onto get to the felo charges here. and first of all, when i right in focusing in on this notion of choose your own adventure of unlawful acts that they don't have to agree on but they have toe agree happened in some way? >> yes because that is necessary but not sufficient. and before they get to the choose your ownge adventure par there are some other things they have to decide where they do have to be unanimous. and not just unanimous that it exists but unanimous as to the what and why of it. first they have to find that donald trump caused business records toau be falsified. then they have to find as you found or discussed that when he did that, he had an the intent to defraud that included an the intent toed commit or conceal another crime. >> yes. district attorney's office has identified only one crime that can be.

joining me now are kristy greenberg and duncan levin. thank you for being here tonight. there is a lot of specific legal stuff i want to get to. but was it a good idea for the defense to end with robert costello? >> it was a horrible idea. it help to bolster michael cohen's credibility. anything that makes michael cohen smell like a rose, it's a bad idea for the defense. but these emails are oozing with slime. :said he wanted to be my lawyer, but i didn't trust him. i thought he was working with donald trump, and today we get emails with they are pretty explicit. we have to make it appear that we are not acting under the instruction of rudy giuliani or the present. and the defense knows that they exist. why would you call this guy. putting aside all the antics where he was blatantly disrespectful. it is maddening. but all those things, the style and the substance was a total train neck for the defense. >> in no uncertain terms a bad idea. the stage we are at now is the judge is deliberating on decisions about the instructions that the jury will be given, which is very im

. >> duncan levine, appreciate you joining us. >>> coming up, we look at this issue of the lies and conspiracys that feed the maga moment with a special guest who has tangled with them. has tangl. his risk of a second attack hasn't. mike is still living in the red. with a very high risk of another heart attack or stroke. he doesn't know with his risk factors his ldl-c (bad cholesterol) is still too high - the recommended level is below 55. are you living in the red? get in the know. learn how to get a free ldl-c test at attackheartdisease.com. every day, more dog people are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food. one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food, no family dinners, no special treats, not enough energy to play. all around the world, hunger is affecting children's physical and mental health. toddlers are suffering from acute malnutrition, which stunts their growth. kids are forced to drop out

s office, daniel horowitz, and former federal prosecutor and criminal defense attorney, duncan levin. when i was in the overflow room, i could donald trump, the prosecution, the defense, the judge, the woman playing the michael cohen and david pecker roles, reading back the testimony. i could not see the jury. what insight do we have about the jury and what they were doing this morning as they were getting back the jury instructions but also getting back that key testimony? >> the ever important jury, right, that's what everyone is focused on right now when it comes to what's happening inside that courtroom or as we should say at this point, what's happening inside that deliberation room, if any of us could be a fly on the wall, what we would hear. as these jury instructions were being read back to the jury, as parts of this testimony from both david pecker and michael cohen were being read back to the jury, i am being told from those reporters that were inside the courtroom, the jurors were taking notes. they were taking lots of notes. they were turning over pages as well. we know no

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s office, duncan levin. the first time they have seen the checks that were the reimbursements to michael cohen. they saw a check for $70,000. that was to pay him back for the months of january and february, those first installments of the reimbursement, so to speak. i'm curious as to, first, i'll start with you, duncan, how you see this latest witness, and how she fits into the big puzzle. >> well, you know, we have spent the first half of this trial really focused on this conspiracy to violate the federal election laws. that's what the first part of the trial was about. now we're moving into falsification of business records. you would expect it to be sort of the more boring phase. that's what the charges are about. and it hasn't been. it's anything but. we are hearing testimony about checks being sent to the white house and him signing these things in the oval office. while it's a little dry, the math here is really what's important. this document, these witnesses are actually more important for the docume

joining me now is lisa reuben, msnbc legal correspondent, duncan levin, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor for the manhattan district attorney's office, and lockland cartwright, former executive editor for the "national enquirer." he's currently a special correspondent for the hollywood reporter. lisa, let me start with you. characterize what happened in court beyond what i have said just now. >> you have given a really good summary, joy, but i think what happened today can best be characterized as exhaustion and exasperation. michael cohen was on cross-examination for the third consecutive day. at times not only did todd blanche's cross-examination seem meandering but it was really repetitive. there were lots of subject matters that were covered again and again. that having been said, there were a couple surprises and not ones that were favorable to the defense. i think the other theme of today is whatever advantage the defense was enjoying on thursday afternoon when they closed, that dissipated for them today through two different circumstances. one is that the remainin

joining me is duncan levin. with us this hour, vaughn hillyard, nyu law professor, andrew weissmann and former u.s. attorney and legal analyst, joyce vance. duncan, i will start here. while we were listening to the president, the testimony continued. there were some pretty detailed explanations by stormy daniels of what she says was a sexual encounter with the former president of the united states. afterwards, this is what she said. she said in testimony that she was staring at the ceiling. i didn't know how i got there. she said -- she was asked, do you recall how it ended? she said, yes. she said she was on the edge of the bed. it was hard to get my shoes on because my hands were shaking so hard. she recalls donald trump's worlds, it was great, let's get together again, honey bunch. i just wanted to leave. it can be very cringy to listen to some of this. i didn't read what some people would say certainly were the most salacious parts of the testimony. where is the line between relevant testimony and salaciousne

catherine christian, and former prosecutor and criminal defense attorney, duncan levin.ce, to you. judge cannon's 1:30 hearing is on a motion to dismiss the indictment because of alleged procedural failures. this is the second time they tried that. what are they arguing? do you think the judge will go for it? what do we think of the way she's scheduling the pretrial hearings and has canceled the trial date? >> right. this is a judge who let motions sit and sort of fester on her desk instead of dealing with them. then she used that backlog as an excuse for further delaying the trial. andrea, prosecutors will tell you, federal prosecutors who have done this kind of case -- i'm one of one -- that this could have been ready by last december or at least by january. the delay is all on the judge. the motion that she's considering this afternoon is sort of a classic example. this is a technical legal motion. in essence saying that prosecutors indicted something that doesn't add up to a crime. it's the motion that most judges would dismiss out of hand. judge cannon is hearing ar

joining me now are duncan levin, former attorney for the district of new york, and federal prosecutorcan, does it matter? the line, the excess of lies that cohen admitted to understand. >> michael cohen is a lying liar who lies all the time and loves to live. everyone agrees about that. the prosecution, the defense, michael cohen agrees. everyone agrees. i think where the defense was effective today and the cross- examination was not only in establishing for hours of testimony that he has lied in the past, and they did an effective job of that. but they showed, i think, instances where michael cullen lied on this stand, to this jury, during this trial. and i think it resonated a little differently. for example, michael cohen testified on direct examination that he never wanted to be chief of staff at the white house. the defense confronted him today with emails and text messages that show no, he was pining for this job. does it matter? no. but it is a lie that he told this jury. another example. he said he never was disputing the underlying facts of his tax crimes. and the defense did

attorney and senior fbi official construction chosen berg, federal prosecutor duncan levin and jeremya, a criminal defense attorney. we begin with katy tur, our friend and colleague and partner at the courthouse today. talk about your -- the key takeaways so far from the closing argument by donald trump's lead attorney. >> it has been so fascinating listening to todd blanche give his final summation. when he got up and first introduced himself to the jury, he thanked them for their service, the time that they have spent on this case, thanked them for paying close attention to the testimony and to all of the evidence. i was struck by his tone and by his manner. he didn't seem fully confident in those moments, didn't seem fully confident in the way he was delivering his thank you. then he hasn't entirely seemed confident throughout his summation. he has gotten some speed here and there. he has gotten into a rhythm at times. for the most part, it does feel like he is winding his way through this, as you listen to it. there were moments where the arguments felt tighter. there were moments

s office, duncan levin. i'm going to give you the first swing at the bat.'s testimony. followed along today. the defense is going to get their first crack at him today. what will you be watching for? >> if he continues to be as composed as he was on the direct. this is a michael cohen we didn't really know from the public record so far. he was so composed and answered the questions in a very measured kind of way. we're going to see if they can get under his skin. that's what they're going to be trying to do all day with with the cross-examination. they're going to be trying to portray him as a liar. as somebody who's really trying to pin this on trump now. that this was something that donald trump had nothing to do with. that he and allen weisselberg were acting on their own. they had weisselberg's handwriting all over this. >> literally. >> all over the bank statements and numbers. there's not much they can do with it. admit what they can't deny. they're going to be trying to get under michael cohen's skin all day, showing him to be the liar that he is. th

duncan levin is back on set.nd a verdict in three days after a five-week trial. take me inside that room. you have just been handed the case as the trump jurors have. what's the first thing you did as a group? >> basically when we went around the table, i believe there are 14 counts, federal charges against both bob mcdonald and his wife maureen. we just took it one at a time, and talked about the evidence for each, and just one at a time because it was just a lot to go through. >> today when they were -- when the judge merchan was giving the jury instructions, he said you can't take into account who the defendant is, and he had said in another point, and i think in the closing the prosecutor said, you know, everybody is equal under the law. but were you hyper aware of the status of the person you were judging? is it possible to say i'm going to treat this person like any other person? >> yes, and i was very aware that this was the former governor and his wife sitting there. however, i went in and i believe that

andrew weissmann, catherine christian, duncan levin, thank you so much to all of you.re approaching the top of the hour, our colleague katy tur is back from trump tower. more special coverage in just a moment. stay with us, you're watching msnbc. , you're watching msnbc. (aaron) i own a lot of businesses... so i wear a lot of hats. my restaurants, my tattoo shop... and i also have a non-profit. but no matter what business i'm in... my network and my tech need to keep up. thank you verizon business. (kevin) now our businesses get fast and reliable internet from the same network that powers our phones. (waitress) all with the security features we need. (aaron) because my businesses are my life. man, the fish tacos are blowing up! so whatever's next... we're cooking with fire. let's make it happen! (vo) switch to the partner businesses rely on. ethan! how's my favorite client? great! i started using schwab investing themes, so now i can easily invest in trends... like wearable tech. trends? all that research. sounds exhausting! nope. schwab's technology does the work. so

attorney and former senior fbi official chuck rosenberg, former manhattan prosecutor duncan levin, andmanhattan d.a. catherine christian. let's begin with andrea mitchell. bring us inside the courtroom. you saw the final arguments of this case, the final witness, i should say. what was it like to have her cross-examine him? what was the jury doing during this? >> it was extraordinary to be in this courtroom to watch donald trump walk in and his entourage with him. the former attorney general was with him, members of congressman, his white house physician, the healthy president in history or something to that effect, with no medical information provided in the white house briefing room, all of that walking in. then susan just filleted robert costello. you had to ask yourself, why did they put on robert costello as a defense witness? you know it was to say that supposedly michael cohen said to him that donald trump didn't know anything about it. that was when michael was still very much in the corner of the former president of the united states, then president of the united states. it wa

also with us in studio, two criminal defense attorneys, msnbc legal analyst, danny cevallos and duncan levinformer senior staffer at the manhattan district attorney's office. okay. duncan, what is job one for michael cohen and the prosecution team as they move forward? >> they have got to keep him under control. he is an uncontrollable witness. the defense has an uncontrollable client. the prosecution has been dealing with uncontrollable witnesses. they saw it first a little bit with stormy daniels, she was veering off course with the questioning. >> some would say more than a little, but okay. >> and the judge had to say to the prosecutor, please just have her answer the questions. they're going to have -- michael cohen is so well prepped for this testimony, he is going to be able to stick to the questions, but i think what they are trying to do is deflate the defense's story. they're trying to make sure that the bad stuff that's going to come out on the cross comes out first on the defense and the direct testimony. they want to make sure that the jury has already heard a lot about him. the

duncan levin, criminal defense attorney and senior staff at the manhattan d.a.'s office and shan wu. just remind us where her testimony left off. >> reporter: right. we were getting into the nitty-gritty of the actual nondisclosure agreement between stormy daniels and michael cohen and she testified just before the jury went out on lunch break that she understood that the nda was being signed by donald trump. that he was party to this agreement here, but that michael cohen was representing him with this agreement here. so what we could expect from the prosecution as they continue their questioning of daniels is why ultimately there in those closing weeks of october 2016 she decided to go, number one, with the $130,000 payment. an agreement to sign this nda with trump and cohen versus say going to an outside publication and having her story going public there in the closing days of the 2016 election. but then we could also likely hear the prosecution ask her about her further understanding between her conversations with keith davidson, who was her attorney at the

joins the conversation, and criminal defense attorney and former manhattan prosecutor, duel role, duncan levin is still with us. i want to call you a slashy in the immortal words of zoo lander, model and actor. michael cohen on the stand for about four hours now. vaughn hillyard, bring us up to speed. >> reporter: currently the line of questioning is around the actual execution of the nondisclosure agreement that michael cohen says that donald trump was party to with stormy daniels and her agent and attorney keith davidson, in the explicit question which gets at the heart of the falsification of business records arguments in charges against donald trump is currently playing before the jury as we speak. the question directed by the prosecution to michael cohen just one minute ago was very explicit. was this nondisclosure agreement for the purposes of paying michael cohen as a legal retainer to which michael cohen said no and said that was, in fact, a lie. the real reason for the nondisclosure agreement was to pay him for the $130,000 stormy daniels hush money payment. this is where the prosecut

joining us now is former federal prosecutor and criminal defense attorney, duncan levin.nd catherine christian is still with us r. before we get into the what is the delay question, i read back some of the testimony the jury is likely to hear. this is regarding david pecker's meeting at trump tower, and there was something in it that stood out to you, catherine. >> which i forgot and maybe some jurors forgot. at that meeting, donald trump suggested david pecker help for his campaign. those words came out of donald trump's mouth, if we believe david pecker, so as josh stein glass said yesterday over and over and over, this was all about the campaign to promote his election by unlawful means. >> at that meeting, donald trump and michael cohen asked me what i can do and what my magazines could do to help the campaign. duncan, in looking, also welcome, in looking at the four questions that the jury that has, does anything stand out to you? is there any through line? >> the through line is that these are all things that involve donald trump, so there's a lot of testimony in th

ana coe min ski and criminal defense attorney and former federal prosecutor duncan levins.there was a little bit of uncertainty this morning in court, a long bench meeting before the cross examination got underway. bring us up to speed on all of it. >> reporter: the last day week five of this trial, a 19-minute bench meeting at the start of court before the jury was brought in. we don't know what they talked about. once we get the partial transcript out this morning, we're going to figure that out and let you know. a couple of things that have come out so far even just in the last 30 minutes or so, the possibility that they could be in court next wednesday when it comes to scheduling. remember, we're not in court every wednesday because the judge, i believe, has family court. they say they may have to work through next wednesday barring any issues with the jury, so we'll keep you updated on that, but there's a possibility we could be in session next wednesday as well. remember, we could also be into closing arguments next week considering the fact this is the last witness f

i was just looking at, comments from duncan levin , who's a former manhattan levin, who's a former manhattanutor who said this case was deeply corroborated with testimony not built around one person, but with texts and emails and phone records. person, but with texts and emails and phone records . and emails and phone records. and there was an awful lot of evidence there . but it's then evidence there. but it's then that argument. well was it nevertheless would anyone else have been charged with this? i mean, it's to view it from across the pond is very difficult . and how they view difficult. and how they view things in the states is very difficult to how we view things over here. i think what is slightly worrying , though, is slightly worrying, though, is the idea, and obviously miscarriages of justice do happen. miscarriages of justice do happen . but if you immediately happen. but if you immediately just say, well, it's all totally nonsense, but that wouldn't happen over here, would it? no. and they'd be out of politics and that would be it. if they if they then challenged it and won, we