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four families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better care of a growing baby. but this baby was stillborn last november, on the day he was due, and outcome his pa rents say day he was due, and outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they had induced me that night, he would have been here. 100%. his parents had called the qeqm hospital in margate at iam in the morning as kirsty was in pain and her son's movements had noticeably changed. she was advised to ta ke changed. she was advised to take painkillers and go to bed. i6 take painkillers and go to bed. 16 hours later she called again and was invited in this time, where staff discovered reed had died. being a first-time mum, i suppose you put too much trust in these people to advise you and get you through something as vulnerable as this. and so you don't question it. east kent hospitals trust say they are investigating the case, but three other families we have spoken to have told us their babies would have survived if medics in east
four families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better care of a growing baby. but this baby was stillborn last november, on the day he was due, and outcome his pa rents say day he was due, and outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they had induced me that night, he would have been here. 100%. his parents had called the qeqm hospital in margate at iam in the morning as kirsty was in pain and...
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the families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better care.ichael buchanan, reports. the joyous scans of a growing baby, but reid shaw was stillborn last november on the day he was due, and outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they'd had induced me that night, he would have been here, 100%. his parents had called at oeqm hospital in margate at 1:10am, as kirsty was in pain and their son's movements had noticeably changed. she was advised to take painkillers and go to bed. 16 hours later, she called again and was invited in this time, where staff discovered reid had died. being a first—time mum, i suppose you put too much trust in these people to advise you and get you through something as vulnerable as this and so you don't question it. east kent hospitals trust say they are investigating the case but three other families we have spoken to have told us their babies would have survived if medics in east kent had provided better care. do you believe his death was preventable 100%. flet
the families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better care.ichael buchanan, reports. the joyous scans of a growing baby, but reid shaw was stillborn last november on the day he was due, and outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they'd had induced me that night, he would have been here, 100%. his parents had called at oeqm hospital in margate at 1:10am, as kirsty was in pain and their son's...
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among the parents who lost children at the east kent hospitals trust, there's a sense that theirfightontinues. this failure to learn and this culture of denial, which is causing real safety issues at the trust, and i really am confident that if we hadn't have spoken out, things will continue. we'll have an extended interview with the head of the trust involved. also tonight: another coronavirus case in the uk, but the dozens of people who arrived from china and were held in quarantine for two weeks have tested negative and will be home tomorrow. following the killing ofjournalist lyra mckee in londonderry, a local man has been charged with her murder. and we meet alice dearing, who's hoping to become the first black woman to represent great britain in olympic swimming. and coming up on sportsday on bbc news, it all came down to the final ball, but england's cricketers were beaten by one run in south africa. good evening. the head of an nhs trust at the centre of concerns about preventable deaths of babies has claimed that the extent of the failings is not clear. susan acott, who's chi
among the parents who lost children at the east kent hospitals trust, there's a sense that theirfightontinues. this failure to learn and this culture of denial, which is causing real safety issues at the trust, and i really am confident that if we hadn't have spoken out, things will continue. we'll have an extended interview with the head of the trust involved. also tonight: another coronavirus case in the uk, but the dozens of people who arrived from china and were held in quarantine for two...
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four families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better carethe trust today, before deciding whether action should be taken. michael buchanan reports. the joyous scans of a growing baby. but reid shaw was stillborn last november on the day he was due, an outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they had induced me that night, he would have been here, 100%. his parents had called the qeqm hospital in margate at 1:10am in the morning, as kirsty was in pain and her son's movements had noticeably changed. she was advised to take painkillers and go to bed. 16 hours later, she called again and was invited in this time, where staff discovered reid had died. being a first—time mum, i suppose you put too much trust in these people to advise you and get you through something as vulnerable as this, and so you don't question it. east kent hospitals trust say they are investigating the case, but three other families we have spoken to have told us their babies would have survived if medics in east kent
four families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better carethe trust today, before deciding whether action should be taken. michael buchanan reports. the joyous scans of a growing baby. but reid shaw was stillborn last november on the day he was due, an outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they had induced me that night, he would have been here, 100%. his parents had called the qeqm hospital...
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east kent hospitals trust accepted responsibility after at least ten babies died since 2011.were stillborn, some were left brain damaged during labour and didn't survive, others contracted infections. but now the hospitals chief executive has spoken publicly for the first time and has sought to downplay not only what happened but also the number of babies who died. our social affairs correspondent michael buchanan reports. no one spotted what was going on. they could have saved him. some days dol they could have saved him. some days do i want to go outside and face the big wide world? no. our son, harry, died because of a number of serious and preventable failures in the medical care and treatment he and my wife sarah received. over the past month east kent hospitals has accepted that since 2011 at least ten babies have died after bad errors, some of them stillborn but inafirst errors, some of them stillborn but in a first interview, the trust's chief executive, susan acott, said there were fewer. from about 2011 to about 2020, there are six or seven cases that are viewed lik
east kent hospitals trust accepted responsibility after at least ten babies died since 2011.were stillborn, some were left brain damaged during labour and didn't survive, others contracted infections. but now the hospitals chief executive has spoken publicly for the first time and has sought to downplay not only what happened but also the number of babies who died. our social affairs correspondent michael buchanan reports. no one spotted what was going on. they could have saved him. some days...
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an nhs trust at the centre of concerns over maternity failings says it doesn't know how many cases of baby deaths were not passed on to coroners. east kent hospitals have been at least 15 preventable baby deaths since 2012. last week nhs england ordered a review of maternity care there. our correspondent, michael buchanan has been speaking to one mother who lost her baby in 2014. you may find some of the details distressing. we try to make sure she is thought of as part of the family. i don't want it to be a dark, scary thing. helen is a professor of medieval history at oxford university. in 2014 well living in canterbury she became nervous of a second pregnancy having nearly lost her first second pregnancy having nearly lost herfirst child due second pregnancy having nearly lost her first child due to complications in labour but she says that east kent hospitals nhs trust were not interested in her concerns. there was little desire to talk with me about what would make me feel safe. i was just told, this is about what would make me feel safe. i wasjust told, this is how about what would make me feel safe. i was just told, this is how we do it, th
an nhs trust at the centre of concerns over maternity failings says it doesn't know how many cases of baby deaths were not passed on to coroners. east kent hospitals have been at least 15 preventable baby deaths since 2012. last week nhs england ordered a review of maternity care there. our correspondent, michael buchanan has been speaking to one mother who lost her baby in 2014. you may find some of the details distressing. we try to make sure she is thought of as part of the family. i don't...
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an nhs trust at the centre of concerns over failures in it's maternity unit, says it doesn't know how many deaths of babies in its care were not passed on to coroners. east kent hospitalsble baby deaths since 2012. nhs england has already ordered a review of maternity care at the trust. 0ur social affairs correspondent, michael buchanan, has been speaking to one mother about the trauma of losing her baby. we tried to make sure she's thought of as part of the family. i don't want it to be a dark, scary thing. helen gittos is a professor of medieval history at oxford university. in 2014, while living in canterbury, she became nervous over a second pregnancy — having nearly lost her first child due to complications in labour — but she says east kent hospitals weren't interested in her concerns. there was little desire to talk with me about what would make me feel safe. i was just told, "this is how we do it, these are our policies." helen asked to give birth at this hospital in margate in a unit staffed solely by midwives but was refused. she therefore opted for a home birth but when her labour failed to progress, she was transferred to hospital where, she says, her probl
an nhs trust at the centre of concerns over failures in it's maternity unit, says it doesn't know how many deaths of babies in its care were not passed on to coroners. east kent hospitalsble baby deaths since 2012. nhs england has already ordered a review of maternity care at the trust. 0ur social affairs correspondent, michael buchanan, has been speaking to one mother about the trauma of losing her baby. we tried to make sure she's thought of as part of the family. i don't want it to be a...
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in an interview with the bbc, susan acott, the chief executive of east kent hospitals trust, claimed y for, for their preventable deaths. when you are looking at babies that are born very prematurely, often have congenital issues as well, it's — it's not quite as clear—cut as that. can you rememberwhen it's not quite as clear—cut as that. can you remember when you saw that royal college of obstetricians and gynaecologists report?” royal college of obstetricians and gynaecologists report? i saw that at the end of 2019. at the end of 2019? yes. why did it take you so long to see that report? i wasn't aware that report had actually been commissioned. susan acott also admitted she had not yet met a single family who had lost a baby due to the trust's for care. as chief executive i think it's really important that i learn, we learn, we all collectively learn. but unless you sit down, face—to—face in the same room as the people who have lost their children, you can't know — you can't even begin to know what it was 's like. i think it is important that staff — me included — listen to familie
in an interview with the bbc, susan acott, the chief executive of east kent hospitals trust, claimed y for, for their preventable deaths. when you are looking at babies that are born very prematurely, often have congenital issues as well, it's — it's not quite as clear—cut as that. can you rememberwhen it's not quite as clear—cut as that. can you remember when you saw that royal college of obstetricians and gynaecologists report?” royal college of obstetricians and gynaecologists...
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four families say their babies would have survived, had east kent hospitals trust provided better cares of a growing baby. but reid shaw was stillborn last november on the day he was due, an outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they had induced me that night, he would have been here, 100%. his parents had called the qeqm hospital in margate at 1:10am in the morning, as kirsty was in pain and her son's movements had noticeably changed. she was advised to take painkillers and go to bed. 16 hours later, she called again and was invited in this time, where staff discovered reid had died. being a first—time mum, i suppose you put too much trust in these people to advise you and get you through something as vulnerable as this, and so you don't question it. east kent hospitals trust say they are investigating the case, but three other families we have spoken to have told us their babies would have survived if medics in east kent had provided better care. that's in addition to the seven preventable deaths we revealed last month. the
four families say their babies would have survived, had east kent hospitals trust provided better cares of a growing baby. but reid shaw was stillborn last november on the day he was due, an outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they had induced me that night, he would have been here, 100%. his parents had called the qeqm hospital in margate at 1:10am in the morning, as kirsty was in pain and her son's movements had noticeably changed....
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the families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better care.ay he was due, and outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they'd had induced me that night, he would have been here, 100%. his parents had called at qeqm hospital in margate at 1:10am, as kirsty was in pain and their son's movements had noticeably changed. she was advised to take painkillers and go to bed. 16 hours later, she called again and was invited in this time, where staff discovered reid had died. being a first—time mum, i suppose you put too much trust in these people to advise you, and get you through something as vulnerable as this, and so you don't question it. east kent hospitals trust say they are investigating the case but three other families we have spoken to have told us their babies would have survived if medics in east kent had provided better care. do you believe his death was preventable? yeah. 100%. fletcher akin was born at 28 weeks. despite being premature, his parents were told he would be fine after a
the families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better care.ay he was due, and outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they'd had induced me that night, he would have been here, 100%. his parents had called at qeqm hospital in margate at 1:10am, as kirsty was in pain and their son's movements had noticeably changed. she was advised to take painkillers and go to bed. 16 hours later, she called...
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the families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better care.come his parents say was wholly avoidable. if they'd had induced me that night, he would have been here, 100%. his parents had called at qeqm hospital in margate at 1:10am, as kirsty was in pain and their son's movements had noticeably changed. she was advised to take painkillers and go to bed. 16 hours later, she called again and was invited in this time, where staff discovered reid had died. being a first—time mum, i suppose you put too much trust in these people to advise you, and get you through something as vulnerable as this, and so you don't question it. east kent hospitals trust say they are investigating the case but three other families we have spoken to have told us their babies would have survived if medics in east kent had provided better care. do you believe his death was preventable? yeah. 100%. fletcher akin was born at 28 weeks. despite being premature, his parents were told he would be fine after a few weeks in hospital. but at nine days old, he started developing sei
the families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better care.come his parents say was wholly avoidable. if they'd had induced me that night, he would have been here, 100%. his parents had called at qeqm hospital in margate at 1:10am, as kirsty was in pain and their son's movements had noticeably changed. she was advised to take painkillers and go to bed. 16 hours later, she called again and was invited in this time, where staff discovered reid had died....
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that was susan a kind of east kent hospital trust talking to our correspondence. “— hospital trust talkingchdog ofcom is to be given new powers to force social media firms to remove harmful content. until now, companies like facebook, youtube and snapchat have largely been left to regulate themselves, but critics say independent rules are needed to keep people safe. it's not yet known what penalties companies will face if they fail to comply, as our media editor amol rajan reports. good afternoon. if you make a habit of asking young people across the country about their digital lives, you find a generation both addicted to smartphones and alert to their dangers. we just go past the terms and condition, just press agree, but, really, no—one actually takes time to actually read it. those dangers, which evolve every week, and test parents‘ tech savviness, have led to long—awaited legislation on online harms. its centrepieces are a statutory duty of care for companies that allow user generated content and the appointment of ofcom, as the uk's first internet regulator. but there's still no deta
that was susan a kind of east kent hospital trust talking to our correspondence. “— hospital trust talkingchdog ofcom is to be given new powers to force social media firms to remove harmful content. until now, companies like facebook, youtube and snapchat have largely been left to regulate themselves, but critics say independent rules are needed to keep people safe. it's not yet known what penalties companies will face if they fail to comply, as our media editor amol rajan reports. good...
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an independent inquiry will be held into maternity services at east kent hospitals trust, amid growing of preventable deaths. the trust's chief executive said there were possibly 15 preventable baby deaths over the course of the last decade. our correspondent, michael buchanan, is at the trust's headquarters in ashford. you have talked to the chief executive and yourself described the situation is very unclear. it is, it's all very unclear. on the independent enquiry it did appear to be announced at the very last moment by the health minister in the commons this morning, the exact details of it are not clear. they will become clearer perhaps this afternoon and over the coming days. i think it's clear to say however that it will focus on incidence of preve nta ble that it will focus on incidence of preventable harm, whether that be death or lifelong injuries in maternity services over the past number of years as well as other problems that we know have been evident in maternity care there. it was announced this morning in a slightly unusual fashion in that the trust board meeting, they
an independent inquiry will be held into maternity services at east kent hospitals trust, amid growing of preventable deaths. the trust's chief executive said there were possibly 15 preventable baby deaths over the course of the last decade. our correspondent, michael buchanan, is at the trust's headquarters in ashford. you have talked to the chief executive and yourself described the situation is very unclear. it is, it's all very unclear. on the independent enquiry it did appear to be...
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susan acott, is chief executive of east kent hospitals trust, she now says there have been "six or sevented responsibility for at least ten deaths but ms acott is now saying the causes of some of those deaths are "not as clear—cut". ms acott has yet to meet any of the families involved. she‘s been questioned by our social affairs correspondent michael buchanan. no—one spotted what was going on. and they could have saved him. some days do i want to go outside and face the big wide world? nah, no. our son, harry, died because of a number of serious and preventable failures in the medical care and treatment that he and my wife sarah received. over the past month, east kent hospitals has accepted that since 2011 at least ten babies have died after bad errors, some of them stillborn. but in her first interview, the trust‘s chief executive, susan acott, the trust‘s chief executive, said there should had been fewer. from about 2011 to 2020, there are six or seven cases that are viewed likely as preventable. this is not credible. i can give you ten names now of babies who have died at this trust
susan acott, is chief executive of east kent hospitals trust, she now says there have been "six or sevented responsibility for at least ten deaths but ms acott is now saying the causes of some of those deaths are "not as clear—cut". ms acott has yet to meet any of the families involved. she‘s been questioned by our social affairs correspondent michael buchanan. no—one spotted what was going on. and they could have saved him. some days do i want to go outside and face the...
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trust. four families said their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals nhs trust provided betterst, couldn't we? because that has even dominated the sport. loads of matches and racing cancelled over the weekend because of the high winds and flooding. the women's six nations match between scotland and england was supposed to take place at scotstoun in glasgow, but with winds of 70 miles an hour, the sru took the decision to postphone it for the safety of both fans and players. so, it's taking place now in edinburgh at murrayfield. it's had to be played behind closed doors, unfortunately, just not enough time to get stewards organised to cope with fans, etc. watching some of the match, the conditions still aren't great — a bit of snow — but it's not as windy as it was yesterday. second half has just got under way, it's 22—0 to england. england are the holders of the six nations title, and they are the heavy favourites to win this match — they haven't lost to scotland this century. it's only 2020, but all right. it was a weird atmosphere there without a crowd, wasn't it? iimagine it
trust. four families said their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals nhs trust provided betterst, couldn't we? because that has even dominated the sport. loads of matches and racing cancelled over the weekend because of the high winds and flooding. the women's six nations match between scotland and england was supposed to take place at scotstoun in glasgow, but with winds of 70 miles an hour, the sru took the decision to postphone it for the safety of both fans and players. so,...
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an nhs trust at the centre of concerns over maternity failings says it doesn't know how many cases of baby deaths were not passed on to coroners. east kent hospitalsce 2012. last week nhs england ordered a review of maternity care at the trust. 0ur social affairs correspondent michael buchanan has been speaking to one mother about the trauma of losing her baby in 2014. you may find some of the details distressing. we try to make sure she is thought of as part of the family. i don't want it to be a dark, scary thing. helen is a professor of medieval history at oxford university. in 2014, while living in canterbury, she became nervous over a second pregnancy — having nearly lost her first child due to complications in labour — but she says that east kent hospitals weren't interested in her concerns. there was little desire to talk with me about what would make me feel safe. i was just told, "this is how we do it, these are our policies." she asked to give birth in the midwife—led unit in margate and was refused, so she opted for a home birth within minutes of the hospital. but when her labour failed to progress, she was transferred to the maternity
an nhs trust at the centre of concerns over maternity failings says it doesn't know how many cases of baby deaths were not passed on to coroners. east kent hospitalsce 2012. last week nhs england ordered a review of maternity care at the trust. 0ur social affairs correspondent michael buchanan has been speaking to one mother about the trauma of losing her baby in 2014. you may find some of the details distressing. we try to make sure she is thought of as part of the family. i don't want it to...
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four families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better carection should be taken. michael buchanan reports. the joyous scans of a growing baby. but reid shaw was stillborn last november on the day he was due, an outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they had induced me that night, he would have been here. 100%. his parents had called the qeqm hospital in margate at 1:00am in the morning, as kirsty was in pain and her son's movements had noticeably changed. she was advised to take painkillers and go to bed. 16 hours later, she called again and was invited in this time, where staff discovered reid had died. being a first—time mum, i suppose you put too much trust in these people to advise you and get you through something as vulnerable as this, and so you don't question it. east kent hospitals trust say they are investigating the case, but three other families we have spoken to have told us their babies would have survived if medics in east kent had provided better care. that is in addi
four families say their babies would have survived had east kent hospitals trust provided better carection should be taken. michael buchanan reports. the joyous scans of a growing baby. but reid shaw was stillborn last november on the day he was due, an outcome his parents say was wholly avoidable. they should have asked us to come in that night. if they had induced me that night, he would have been here. 100%. his parents had called the qeqm hospital in margate at 1:00am in the morning, as...
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an independent inquiry will be held into maternity services at east kent hospitals trust, amid growingpossibly 15 preventable baby deaths over the course of the last decade. health minister nadine dorris made the announcement in the ccommons this afternoon. last night i asked my officials if they could look into sending the independent health service investigation board back in to do a deep dive to look back over historic cases and existing cases at the trust and they just want to reiterate that the trust is a safe place for any woman who is pregnant now or giving birth at the trust. we have some of the best clinicians working in a trust right now. i want to add that nhs england and nhs improvements are commissioning themselves an independent review into east kent maternity services. earlier we spoke to our social affairs correspondent, michael buchanan. he is outside the drop of mike headquarters in ashford. on that marked independent enquiry, did appearto be on that marked independent enquiry, did appear to be announced at the very last moment by the health minister in the commons th
an independent inquiry will be held into maternity services at east kent hospitals trust, amid growingpossibly 15 preventable baby deaths over the course of the last decade. health minister nadine dorris made the announcement in the ccommons this afternoon. last night i asked my officials if they could look into sending the independent health service investigation board back in to do a deep dive to look back over historic cases and existing cases at the trust and they just want to reiterate...
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among the parents who lost children at the east kent hospitals trust, there‘s a sense that theirfight
among the parents who lost children at the east kent hospitals trust, there‘s a sense that theirfight
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trusts, varying from £1,000 up to £350,000 a year. this report follows the recent maternity scandals at shrewsbury and telford hospitals and east kent hospitals a year. let‘s talk now to sara ledger — from ba by lifeline and james titcombe — whose sonjoshua died aged just nine days old in 2008. we can also speak to laura middleton who lost her daughter charlotte lastjuly. thank you all for coming on the programme, thank you very much. james, i wonder how you reacted to the news that baby deaths are being investigated at other trusts? which, perhaps suggests lessons aren‘t being learned after the death of your little boy all those years ago. it's your little boy all those years ago. it‘s really disappointing. joshua died back in 2008. we had a long time and a big focus on maternity safety, get a similar themes keep repeating. this needs to be a wake—up call. how many more scandals do we need to see before we really get to grips with this problem? you we re get to grips with this problem? you were saying that and have been saying that almost every year since you lost your little boy. and it's really frustrating. there have been big changes to p
trusts, varying from £1,000 up to £350,000 a year. this report follows the recent maternity scandals at shrewsbury and telford hospitals and east kent hospitals a year. let‘s talk now to sara ledger — from ba by lifeline and james titcombe — whose sonjoshua died aged just nine days old in 2008. we can also speak to laura middleton who lost her daughter charlotte lastjuly. thank you all for coming on the programme, thank you very much. james, i wonder how you reacted to the news that...
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an independent inquiry will be held into maternity services at east kent hospitals trust, amid growingibly 15 preventable baby deaths over the course of the last decade. health minister nadine dorris made the announcement in the commons this morning. last night i asked my officials if they could look into sending the independent health service investigation board back and to do a deep dive to look back over historic cases and existing cases at the trust. i want to reiterate that the trust. i want to reiterate that the trust is a safe place for anyone and who is pregnant now or will be giving birth at the trust. we have some of the best people and clinicians working at the trust right now. i would like to say that nhs improvements are commissioned themselves an independent review into east kent maternity services. that was the health minister making an announcement. earlier we spoke to our social affairs correspondent, michael buchanan. on that independent inquiry it seemed to be announced at the last moment by the health minister in the comments and the exact details are not clear and
an independent inquiry will be held into maternity services at east kent hospitals trust, amid growingibly 15 preventable baby deaths over the course of the last decade. health minister nadine dorris made the announcement in the commons this morning. last night i asked my officials if they could look into sending the independent health service investigation board back and to do a deep dive to look back over historic cases and existing cases at the trust. i want to reiterate that the trust. i...
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nhs england were told that the east kent hospital trust is to hold an independent enquiry into maternityin relation to baby deaths at the hospital. we are told that the scale of baby deaths at east kent is not clear that's according to the boss of the nhs trust at the centre of the investigation into those deaths at east kent, but the nhs is to hold an independent enquiry into maternity services there, it has just been announced in the commons. we'll get more detail on that as we get it, and bring that to of course. fly tipping is a blight on the countryside, and now, new research by the bbc shows the number of large scale incidents, where thousands of tonnes of rubbish are dumped at a time, has more than doubled. organised criminal gangs are being blamed for the continued rise, as our environment correspondent david gregory—kumar has been investigating. just north of birmingham, an example of large—scale fly—tipping. lorry loads of waste dumped on parkland by a housing estate. disgusted. we have to pay a management fee to live on this estate. and yet they've sent us another bill this mo
nhs england were told that the east kent hospital trust is to hold an independent enquiry into maternityin relation to baby deaths at the hospital. we are told that the scale of baby deaths at east kent is not clear that's according to the boss of the nhs trust at the centre of the investigation into those deaths at east kent, but the nhs is to hold an independent enquiry into maternity services there, it has just been announced in the commons. we'll get more detail on that as we get it, and...