i think he had edmund morris tearing his hair out. i mean, edmund morris resorted to a little bit of fictionalization. i'm glad he didn't do a whole novel. >> evan: right. >> thomas: but in "dutch", which is a very interesting book but, to say the least, an odd one. >> evan: right. >> thomas: because he could not grasp reagan. he was not available. and i felt some of that as i started to write the book. reagan is never in this book, except for the very end in an epilogue. he's never seen from the inside out. you know, what's called a point of view character in the creative writing biz. he's always seen from the outside. sort of the way gore vidal presents lincoln. never goes inside him. i don't know what it says about me, but i never in the previous book, when i was writing "watergate", i never felt uncomfortable being inside richard nixon. it may not say the best thing about my character but i could relate to him in a way. >> evan: yeah. harder to access -- right. >> thomas: absolutely. didn't attempt it. i think it had a lot to do w

she had felt burned by edmund morris who was the official biographer and came out with a book called "dutch." so she was very skeptical but she knew she needed to let these diaries go to a historian. sure enough, we ate a nancy reagan cobb salad. that was the name of it. she talked to me about not just her husband but about hollywood that that point. she loved to gossip about johnny depp and brad pitt and any movie that came out. that was her recreation really, the scoop on the streets of hollywood. she was a fun and delightful person. >> what is the one thing that has stood out to you most about their love and their life? >> that there would have been no ronald reagan without her, because for all of his qualities, he lacked the ability to not like people enough. and he didn't really have that radar to say this person is screwing me over. this is where the person is leaking. or you have to fire people sometimes. nancy reagan didn't have those problems. she was tough as nails. she made grown men quake. if she'd call on the phone, you just didn't want to have her ire aimed your way. sh